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This is an awesome site, visually depicting how unaffordable housing has become in so many parts of the US. It's truly amazing how much the Fed (with perpetual

This is an awesome site, visually depicting how unaffordable housing has become in so many parts of the US. It's truly amazing how much the Fed (with perpetually low interest rates) and local restrictions on building (making it more expensive or impossible to build) have increased the cost of home ownership over the past 60 years. Anyone who's seriously considering purchasing a home should read The Housing Trap by Patrick Killelea, it's a short, amazing overview of how we arrived in the situation we're in as well as a practical guide for when to buy vs rent housing. https://www.amazon.com/dp/1479156213/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_awdb_KiWSzbNN7T5YE https://www.amazon.com/dp/1479156213/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_awdb_Ki...

zaroth 9y ago
That's funny, my takeaway was that the vast majority of the US has incredibly affordable housing. But I suppose if your call center employees simply must be living in downtown S.F. the answer must be that we just need lax zoning and higher density!
- sbenitoj 9y ago
  Ha, well in non-major cities you're right, but all the major cities cost an arm and a leg for the most part!
  - zaroth 9y ago
    Well the only way to drive down price is to either increase supply or decrease demand. So make cities shitier and denser. Is this a case where a small increase in supply would decrease the price significantly? I doubt it. So, is there some reason we (as a nation) need to double population density of our largest cities? With the huge advances we are likely to see in autonomous zero-emission delivery infrastructure and remote communication over the next 20 years, not to mention the increasing likelihood of natural disasters and WMDs hitting these cities, I really don't see the point of pushing for so much urban growth.
    - brightball 9y ago
      Because I keep seeing articles pop up over the last few years trying to convince me that suburbs are basically evil incarnate for some reason. It gets to the point where it feels like a political platform.
      - zaroth 9y ago
        There's definitely a political platform here. Economic models claiming suburbs are beyond bankrupt and destined for failure. [1] Apparently my property taxes can't even cover the cost of pavement and water mains, and yet we just built a new school, and are in the process of planning a $20 million library. [1] - https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason...
        throwawayjava 9y ago
        > Apparently my property taxes can't even cover the cost of pavement and water mains, and yet we just built a new school, and are in the process of planning a $20 million library From the link: "If they operated on accrual accounting -- where you account for your long term liabilities -- instead of a cash basis -- where you don't -- they would have been bankrupt decades ago" The PF analogy to what you're saying is "yeah I'm dipping into savings to make mortgage payments and need to replace my roof next year and repair a major crack in the foundation. But they let me open a credit card and get a loan for a car, so what's the problem?"
    - kelnos 9y ago
      > Well the only way to drive down price is to either increase supply or decrease demand. So make cities shitier and denser. That's just, like, your opinion, man. I prefer living in denser environments.
      - zaroth 9y ago
        Shitier may be orthogonal to denser. But to your point, if denser is so much better, will increased density lead to lower prices, or just create more demand and keep prices the same?
  - majormajor 9y ago
    Leave the coasts and you can find all sorts of multiple-million-people cities with far cheaper housing.
    - twobyfour 9y ago
      Are you sure about that? There are only a couple cities in the US other than NYC and LA that have populations of 2M or more, and only 10 cities total with populations above a million in the last census.
      - matthewbauer 9y ago
        If you count entire metro areas, there are at least 50.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    In addition to less expensive cities, in many in-demand cities (SF not so much), it's actually possible to live in many nice suburbs/exurbs for a lot less money. That's often even where most of the tech jobs are. Boston/Cambridge? Expensive. But 45 mins or so out? Far less so. And you're closer to where most of the jobs are anyway. The urban cores may be a lifestyle choice. But it's a luxury choice in many cases. Not a place that someone actually has to live if they want to work.
- culturalzero 9y ago
  You clearly don't know what it's like to live on minimum wage right now. It's extremely difficult to live anywhere even close to the Bay area on minimum wage, which let's be real, a call center employee would be on. Public transportation options get figured in there too. I'm very fortunate to have a good job now, but it wasn't all that long ago I was scraping by on near minimum wage.
  - angersock 9y ago
    This is one of the reasons companies have a strategic advantage when they let their CS folks work remotely.
  - zaroth 9y ago
    No, I understand exactly and I think we are in violent agreement. One cannot afford to live in the Bay Area on anything near minimum wage. So fuck "The Real Bay Area" and live just about anywhere else in the continental US.
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      Median wage is 2-3x the minimum wage. So housing affordability on minimum wage in most of the US is closer to California at median wage than it is to most of the US at median wage.
      - zaroth 9y ago
        TFA shows that in well over 50% of the land mass of the continental US, houses can be bought for 1 year of median wages. Living on minimum wage is hard anywhere. The question is -- is it OK if there is 5-10% of the continental US where it's impossible to live on minimum wage? I think that yes that's probably OK... Is it OK that for some [relatively small number of] cities, that median wage feels like minimum wage? Why is that a problem when people have the choice to live there or not?
  - rconti 9y ago
    The point of the parent post is the vast amounts of land that contain cheap housing. Of course, it doesn't address how easy it is to find a job in the first place in those locations, but it's a great point nonetheless.
- danans 9y ago
  > But I suppose if your call center employees simply must be living in downtown S.F. the answer must be that we just need lax zoning and higher density! The call center employees living en masse in SF is a very far fetched claim that requires strong evidence here, along with the implication that they are what necessitates higher density. This framing is insensitive to both call center workers who likely could never afford to live in SF and those who are paying the price of anti development NIMBYism in the Bay Area housing market.
  - zaroth 9y ago
    Hmm... I never said anything about "en masse". It was a reference to the Yelp/Eat24 call center employee controversy from last year. [1] In cases like these, I think it's very reasonable to question why those kinds of jobs should be the ones increasing demand in SF and, therefore, driving up prices for everyone else. If you think my framing is insensitive to call center employees, I think you may have misunderstood me. I was condescending to the call center employers who are causing undue financial stress on their employees by making S.F. relo a job requirement for what should be a satellite office, if not remote work, position. My point is also that people who struggle to afford the high cost of living in the "Real Bay Area" [2] -- of which I was one -- should perhaps consider, I don't know, moving -- which I did. The idea that SF should be redesigned and reconstructed until such time as supply is so plentiful as to bring down prices an order of magnitude, to me that's the offensive bit. I think the property owners of SF are well within their rights to tell people who want to build affordable housing towers to get lost. [1] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/02/23/i-was-picking-up-pennies-ex-employee-says-after-decrying-yelps-wages-and-losing-her-job/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/02/23... [2] - See: http://www.burbed.com http://www.burbed.com P.S. If this comes off as a little combative, I apologize, my dad is in a house on the canal in Cape Coral, FL right now and refusing to evacuate.
    - quickthrower2 9y ago
      > I think the property owners of SF are well within their rights to tell people who want to build affordable housing towers to get lost Technically correct, first amendment and all. But really you are pro-NIMBY?
- pjmorris 9y ago
  > That's funny, my takeaway was that the vast majority of the US has incredibly affordable housing. What are you comparing against? In the US, the old rule of thumb (up until the ~1990's) was that you shouldn't buy more house than 2X your income. That's more affordable than what is depicted here. EDIT: I've added link to a Calculated Risk post on the ratio between US house prices and median income since 1976 [0]. By their estimates, the typical ratio has been 3X, low by your standards. [0] http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2017/07/house-prices-to-national-average-wage.html http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2017/07/house-prices-to-na...
dv_dt 9y ago
I cant help but notice in the OP visualization, the houston area is cheap - a year of work, and reputed to have little regulation - like zoning regs for flood watersheds, or regulatory oversight over chemicals stored in warehouses...
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Cockroaches are rampant in larger apartment complexes. If you go to poorer or less well maintained places and restaurants, the things are literally crawling over everything - it's hard to believe it's America. Mosquito breeding areas in all the ubiquitous slow winding bayous and creeks. The one month or so of winter cold enough to freeze results in sleet not snow most of the time due to prevailing atmospheric conditions. The rest of the year feel the need to take a shower after spending 15 minutes outside due to humidity.
  - rsheridan6 9y ago
    I lived in Houston for a few years and I'd take its flaws over being house poor in a coastal city.
    - stevenwoo 9y ago
      That's fair - just pointing out if one hasn't lived there there are some signficant downsides not included in the housing comparison. Grew up there and worked and lived there a few decades later.
eanzenberg 9y ago
This more-so shows how affordable lots of the country is!

zaroth 9y ago

That's funny, my takeaway was that the vast majority of the US has incredibly affordable housing. But I suppose if your call center employees simply must be living in downtown S.F. the answer must be that we just need lax zoning and higher density!

sbenitoj 9y ago
Ha, well in non-major cities you're right, but all the major cities cost an arm and a leg for the most part!
- zaroth 9y ago
  Well the only way to drive down price is to either increase supply or decrease demand. So make cities shitier and denser. Is this a case where a small increase in supply would decrease the price significantly? I doubt it. So, is there some reason we (as a nation) need to double population density of our largest cities? With the huge advances we are likely to see in autonomous zero-emission delivery infrastructure and remote communication over the next 20 years, not to mention the increasing likelihood of natural disasters and WMDs hitting these cities, I really don't see the point of pushing for so much urban growth.
  - brightball 9y ago
    Because I keep seeing articles pop up over the last few years trying to convince me that suburbs are basically evil incarnate for some reason. It gets to the point where it feels like a political platform.
    - zaroth 9y ago
      There's definitely a political platform here. Economic models claiming suburbs are beyond bankrupt and destined for failure. [1] Apparently my property taxes can't even cover the cost of pavement and water mains, and yet we just built a new school, and are in the process of planning a $20 million library. [1] - https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason...
      - throwawayjava 9y ago
        > Apparently my property taxes can't even cover the cost of pavement and water mains, and yet we just built a new school, and are in the process of planning a $20 million library From the link: "If they operated on accrual accounting -- where you account for your long term liabilities -- instead of a cash basis -- where you don't -- they would have been bankrupt decades ago" The PF analogy to what you're saying is "yeah I'm dipping into savings to make mortgage payments and need to replace my roof next year and repair a major crack in the foundation. But they let me open a credit card and get a loan for a car, so what's the problem?"
  - kelnos 9y ago
    > Well the only way to drive down price is to either increase supply or decrease demand. So make cities shitier and denser. That's just, like, your opinion, man. I prefer living in denser environments.
    - zaroth 9y ago
      Shitier may be orthogonal to denser. But to your point, if denser is so much better, will increased density lead to lower prices, or just create more demand and keep prices the same?
- majormajor 9y ago
  Leave the coasts and you can find all sorts of multiple-million-people cities with far cheaper housing.
  - twobyfour 9y ago
    Are you sure about that? There are only a couple cities in the US other than NYC and LA that have populations of 2M or more, and only 10 cities total with populations above a million in the last census.
    - matthewbauer 9y ago
      If you count entire metro areas, there are at least 50.
- ghaff 9y ago
  In addition to less expensive cities, in many in-demand cities (SF not so much), it's actually possible to live in many nice suburbs/exurbs for a lot less money. That's often even where most of the tech jobs are. Boston/Cambridge? Expensive. But 45 mins or so out? Far less so. And you're closer to where most of the jobs are anyway. The urban cores may be a lifestyle choice. But it's a luxury choice in many cases. Not a place that someone actually has to live if they want to work.
culturalzero 9y ago
You clearly don't know what it's like to live on minimum wage right now. It's extremely difficult to live anywhere even close to the Bay area on minimum wage, which let's be real, a call center employee would be on. Public transportation options get figured in there too. I'm very fortunate to have a good job now, but it wasn't all that long ago I was scraping by on near minimum wage.
- angersock 9y ago
  This is one of the reasons companies have a strategic advantage when they let their CS folks work remotely.
- zaroth 9y ago
  No, I understand exactly and I think we are in violent agreement. One cannot afford to live in the Bay Area on anything near minimum wage. So fuck "The Real Bay Area" and live just about anywhere else in the continental US.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    Median wage is 2-3x the minimum wage. So housing affordability on minimum wage in most of the US is closer to California at median wage than it is to most of the US at median wage.
    - zaroth 9y ago
      TFA shows that in well over 50% of the land mass of the continental US, houses can be bought for 1 year of median wages. Living on minimum wage is hard anywhere. The question is -- is it OK if there is 5-10% of the continental US where it's impossible to live on minimum wage? I think that yes that's probably OK... Is it OK that for some [relatively small number of] cities, that median wage feels like minimum wage? Why is that a problem when people have the choice to live there or not?
- rconti 9y ago
  The point of the parent post is the vast amounts of land that contain cheap housing. Of course, it doesn't address how easy it is to find a job in the first place in those locations, but it's a great point nonetheless.
danans 9y ago
> But I suppose if your call center employees simply must be living in downtown S.F. the answer must be that we just need lax zoning and higher density! The call center employees living en masse in SF is a very far fetched claim that requires strong evidence here, along with the implication that they are what necessitates higher density. This framing is insensitive to both call center workers who likely could never afford to live in SF and those who are paying the price of anti development NIMBYism in the Bay Area housing market.
- zaroth 9y ago
  Hmm... I never said anything about "en masse". It was a reference to the Yelp/Eat24 call center employee controversy from last year. [1] In cases like these, I think it's very reasonable to question why those kinds of jobs should be the ones increasing demand in SF and, therefore, driving up prices for everyone else. If you think my framing is insensitive to call center employees, I think you may have misunderstood me. I was condescending to the call center employers who are causing undue financial stress on their employees by making S.F. relo a job requirement for what should be a satellite office, if not remote work, position. My point is also that people who struggle to afford the high cost of living in the "Real Bay Area" [2] -- of which I was one -- should perhaps consider, I don't know, moving -- which I did. The idea that SF should be redesigned and reconstructed until such time as supply is so plentiful as to bring down prices an order of magnitude, to me that's the offensive bit. I think the property owners of SF are well within their rights to tell people who want to build affordable housing towers to get lost. [1] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/02/23/i-was-picking-up-pennies-ex-employee-says-after-decrying-yelps-wages-and-losing-her-job/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/02/23... [2] - See: http://www.burbed.com http://www.burbed.com P.S. If this comes off as a little combative, I apologize, my dad is in a house on the canal in Cape Coral, FL right now and refusing to evacuate.
  - quickthrower2 9y ago
    > I think the property owners of SF are well within their rights to tell people who want to build affordable housing towers to get lost Technically correct, first amendment and all. But really you are pro-NIMBY?
pjmorris 9y ago
> That's funny, my takeaway was that the vast majority of the US has incredibly affordable housing. What are you comparing against? In the US, the old rule of thumb (up until the ~1990's) was that you shouldn't buy more house than 2X your income. That's more affordable than what is depicted here. EDIT: I've added link to a Calculated Risk post on the ratio between US house prices and median income since 1976 [0]. By their estimates, the typical ratio has been 3X, low by your standards. [0] http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2017/07/house-prices-to-national-average-wage.html http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2017/07/house-prices-to-na...

dv_dt 9y ago

I cant help but notice in the OP visualization, the houston area is cheap - a year of work, and reputed to have little regulation - like zoning regs for flood watersheds, or regulatory oversight over chemicals stored in warehouses...

stevenwoo 9y ago
Cockroaches are rampant in larger apartment complexes. If you go to poorer or less well maintained places and restaurants, the things are literally crawling over everything - it's hard to believe it's America. Mosquito breeding areas in all the ubiquitous slow winding bayous and creeks. The one month or so of winter cold enough to freeze results in sleet not snow most of the time due to prevailing atmospheric conditions. The rest of the year feel the need to take a shower after spending 15 minutes outside due to humidity.
- rsheridan6 9y ago
  I lived in Houston for a few years and I'd take its flaws over being house poor in a coastal city.
  - stevenwoo 9y ago
    That's fair - just pointing out if one hasn't lived there there are some signficant downsides not included in the housing comparison. Grew up there and worked and lived there a few decades later.

eanzenberg 9y ago

This more-so shows how affordable lots of the country is!