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Ontario unveils plan for government chain of marijuana stores

118 points by fmihaila 9y ago

mfoy_ 9y ago
A step in the right direction, I guess. Ontario can be surprisingly conservative about these things... they only recently started allowing alcohol to be sold in grocery stores. Seems the initial round of legislation will legalize it, but with heavy restrictions.
- nasalgoat 9y ago
  I really wish they'd step back and let the free market handle it, instead of once again heavily restricting distribution and sales to another bloated government monopoly. Plus, the number of stores at launch is way too low - people will simply continue to purchase higher quality weed for less money from private sellers. It's a bad move all around.
  - kogepathic 9y ago
    > instead of once again heavily restricting distribution and sales to another bloated government monopoly. Yes, yes, yes. Why can't they regulate it like cigarettes? The argument about keeping it out of the hands of minors is bullshit. It's already illegal to sell tobacco products to people under age in Ontario. LCBO and the Beer Store are stupid ideas from a bygone era that need to end. Legal monopolies of provincial owned entities should not be permitted. I'm not saying full privatization is the right answer, because I don't believe the free market solution is always best, but at least allow private competition to a crown corp. LCBO has no motivation to innovate because there is little/no competition.
  - mainliningfbs 9y ago
    Nah, Canada is past the free market. We have learned that stricter regulations on addictive substances make society a better place.
- slavik81 9y ago
  The government of Ontario makes a net profit of ~$2B/year off the LCBO and employs about ~7000 people at wages way above what you'd probably see in a privatized market. There's not too much grumbling from consumers, so nobody in government really wants to rock the boat. Having experienced both, as a consumer I prefer the Alberta model with privatized retailers because there are far more stores and the hours are better. Actually, I found this old Fraser Institute report on the privatization of liquor in Alberta to be rather interesting. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/PrivatizationofLiquorAlberta.pdf https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/Privatiz... It's not a big deal for me personally, but there's also more room for unique shops. For example, one of the markets nearby does a lot of specialty whiskey imports.
  - wolco 9y ago
    Think of how many more jobs we could have.
- noarchy 9y ago
  Here's the thing, though. If you refer to an "initial round" of legislation, you're probably assuming another round isn't far away. You have a real-life experiment with which to compare, in the LCBO, to see that progress will extremely slow, and limited. How long did it take to get beer into grocery stores (and even then with some restrictions)? That's beer. How long will it take with weed?
afinlayson 9y ago
Finally! Let's put the money that made drug dealers rich, and put it back into things the people actually care about! Like education, health care.
- wolco 9y ago
  Or billion dollar gas plants that get cancelled.
iamatworknow 9y ago
I live on the border of New York and Ontario/Quebec and I can't see how this won't spur legalization here. The border is already incredibly porous and the smuggling routes already exist. This will just make it even easier.
- drpgq 9y ago
  Well another reason to go to Niagara Falls I guess.
- vanjoe 9y ago
  Personally I wouldn't try smuggling from across, taking beer and smokes across without declaration is significantly less of a risc than taking banned substances. I say this as a Canadian a few minutes from the Washington border.
- giarc 9y ago
  Smuggling a case of beer across will result in you losing the beer. Smuggling marijuana will result in a felony and never being allowed to cross the border again. It doesn't make sense to illegally transport marijuana across the border just so you can buy it legally from a store.
  - iamatworknow 9y ago
    I'm saying it already happens. I grew up with people who literally smuggle weed for a living across the northern border. There are some areas where there is no actual official border[0] where smuggling is happening now. It was already comparatively easier to access in Canada then smuggle to the US, but when it's legal in Canada it will just help fuel the supply being brought over. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akwesasne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akwesasne
plantel 9y ago
Toronto is currently full of dispensaries on every corner. Some are open late and you're always close to one, independent local businesses with people in the community making money and spending it locally. It will be sad to see a government monopoly turn weed distribution into the LCBO style. Expect prices to go up to $15-20g, cut down the number of locations and closes at 9pm.
- antoniuschan99 9y ago
  I think we all expected it to be like this since we have the LCBO
- ape4 9y ago
  Police warn organized crime, including the Hells Angels, has infiltrated the medical marijuana market http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/police-warn-organized-crime-including-the-hells-angels-has-infiltrated-the-medical-marijuana-market-1.4067112 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/police-warn-organized-c...
  - wolco 9y ago
    Sometimes they release this information to scare and control the population. This is talking about the hell angels getting a medical supply and selling it on the black market. Not the same as running a store and none of this changes by having the lcbo run stores the supplier are licensed by government of Canada.
- cortesoft 9y ago
  At some point we have to compromise - a lot of people want drugs like marijuana illegal because they DON'T want dispensaries on every corner, open at all hours of the night, selling cheap drugs. Maybe a good starting compromise is, ok, marijuana will be legal and people won't get arrested anymmore, but it will only be sold at a limited number of places for a limited amount of time, for an amount that will keep it from being too prevalent.
JPKab 9y ago
I live in Colorado. I think they are really blowing it by making the stores government owned. In Colorado, the stores are privately owned but very, very strictly regulated. Plants are tracked with an RFID all the way to the products derived from them, with a full chain of custody all the way to purchase. Only adults 21 and up can enter them, with a strict dual-check of identification (once to enter, and again when paying the cashier). The various shops actually end up being very different from each other in surprising ways. They all adhere to the regulations, but some are much larger and more corporate feeling, with lower prices, while others are boutique, specialize in higher quality product, and priced higher. The pace with which new products can be introduced is much faster due to potential producers not having to negotiate with a giant bureaucracy to get a product on the shelves.
- macspoofing 9y ago
  >I think they are really blowing it by making the stores government owned Considering that you can only buy alcohol through government owned stores, at least it's consistent.
- vkou 9y ago
  > I think they are really blowing it by making the stores government owned. Why? The largest chain of BC liquor stores is government-owned and operated. They do a pretty decent job of it.
  - iamatworknow 9y ago
    Ontario does too. You can complain that the prices are a little high, but the LCBO stores I've been to have always been much cleaner and the staff more attentive, knowledgable, and personable than any privately owned store over the border in New York.
    - dugditches 9y ago
      How often do you talk to the staff at your liquor store? The convenience of buying at a corner store at a convenient time outweighs any of those things in my opinion(US, Quebec, some locations in Ont). With the dollar going back up it'll be better to simply cross the border to buy alcohol and gas again, instead of paying the ridiculous markup.(for context, a 24 of 355ml cans of 'budget' beer is nearly $50 CAD).
3pt14159 9y ago
I'm a Toronto native. These are the forces driving this decision: 1. Provincial government is cash poor. The LCBO is a huge source of cash, what government would give up another source? This isn't taxes, this is profit. "Isn't this just another tax?" One might ask, but no it's not. The reason is that Ontario has fewer alcohol distribution centres than a free market would provide. Most people just do a bigger alcohol run and drive / walk / drive further than their American counterparts. There's queuing occasionally, but usually only before long weekends or holidays. 2. The current dispensaries are run by criminals. The optics of giving a windfall to law breakers aren't great. The police keep shutting them down, and they keep popping up. I'm not bashing them, I think cannabis should have been legalized a long time ago and I think it's unconscionable that we have Canadians addicted to heroin because they were given opioids instead of pot, because pot requires a huge hassle to get approved, and I think dispensaries alleviate that stress, but some operations are huuuuge and most certainly are funnelling money into real criminal organizations. 3. The union at the LCBO is huge and powerful. The jobs, even seasonal ones, pay well and Ontarians aren't outraged because the staff is generally competent and friendly and the stores are clean. 4. Controls over potency are a real problem in the current dispensaries and because of the sketchiness of the current people involved and their distribution networks, the government would have to get involved auditing anyway. I hope that they keep the stores open every day of the week. Many Canadians use pot outside the medical system, but for medical reasons and fast access will mean the black market will finally collapse. I also hope there will be a system for legitimizing certain strains that gain popularity in the US, like the LCBO does for wine.
- deskamess 9y ago
  It is important that the LCBO not be the only source. It needs to be opened up from the get-go and not have to follow the mini-step half measures that we have to go through to get alcohol in grocery stores. The sourcing of alcohol is still controlled by the province. It is a govt sponsored racket and monopoly.
  - bupku5 9y ago
    And the Beer Store is terrible and offers a non-existent selection.
MrBlue 9y ago
LCBO pricing? Get ready for $65 grams! The black market will continue to thrive.
mwdalrymple 9y ago
The LCBO is a good employer for stupid people. Those salaries go right back into the economy. These unionized jobs also come with a great pension providing retirement security. I am quite happy with this. The government privatizing things such as Ontario Hydro has been a huge disaster. At least they are not stupid enough to give this up.
- wolco 9y ago
  Privating hydro is different because it is still a monopoly. The little guy cannot setup a power company. But this is a new industry with small business being wiped out. Imagine we all had to wait in line for our block of cheese once a week.
  - mwdalrymple 9y ago
    But are these little businesses on the books contributing tax revenue?
    - wolco 9y ago
      They would if allowed to continue and brought in legally. Right now they are paying taxes on hydro, water, property taxes and income earned, employee related taxes, insurance and some are charging hst.
- matart 9y ago
  I don't mind it being LCBOish but pot can come in a lot of forms and I'm not sure the government will be up to providing it in oils, candies, cookies, vape juices, baked goods all around, butter, tea, cola, etc. This is something a small shop would make and sell easily. A lot of people enjoy smoke free pot and I am not certain they will handle that.
- stevehiehn 9y ago
  'Stupid People'? Come on, that's a real asshole thing to say. You can't be to bright yourself if you think a person is stupid for working an honest job.
microcolonel 9y ago
This is, of course, probably a bad idea. There is a preexisting efficient network of high quality marijuana distribution in Ontario (at least here in Toronto). Even if the province does as well with marijuana as they do with booze (the LCBO is at least a pleasant retailer, aside from the rules about minors touching merchandise during shopping), the black market will be far more attractive to the mid and low shelf market. It is considerably easier to grow and cure marijuana than it is to ferment commercially viable quantities of an attractive alcoholic drink. The ideal legal weed situation is a legitimate version of the black market arrangement, which hasn't been a considerable health problem in any way that could be attributed to poor quality product. Pretending otherwise is just a typical legal trick pulled by established agribusiness/venture firms. Frankly it's hilarious at a time when the province is finally reintroducing private alcohol retailers.
stevehiehn 9y ago
Its interesting that Ontario just introduced the privatization of booze and then turn around and create a monopoly on pot. Well, either way i'm pretty happy that good normal people will no longer be at risk of criminal offenses.
deleted 9y ago
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ericzawo 9y ago
Lifelong Ontarian. I always thought our logic of having a provincially run liquor store was limited in practice. Like, why aren't LCBO stores open 24 hours? Generally, most are open from 10 am to 9 pm. Making them 24 hours could nearly double their workforce. I've been watching closely the way government will carry this out, and its unfortunate they aren't choosing to franchise dispensary permits out to small business. But I suppose Ontario's government would botch that, too. Hell, they're attempting to roll out the opportunity to purchase beer and wine (woo!) at grocery stores — but so far, only the franchise chains are able. Finally, Liquor in Ontario is dumb expensive. I expect them to milk the price of marijuana for all its worth when this finally comes out.
- vidarh 9y ago
  I don't know about Ontario, but in Norway the reason for having limited opening hours (shorter than the ones you gave), and restricting the number of outlets, and pricing things high is that the government monopoly on these products is not there to maximise sales, but to minimise them. They're only open in the first place because prohibition didn't work and drove sales under ground. So they provide a compromise - limited outlets, restrictions on opening hours etc. - that stave off attempts open up for wider sales and that is "good enough" to prevent most (but not all) black market sale of alcohol. I believe that is the motivation for most alcohol related government monopolies.
tekni5 9y ago
If anyone is interested, there is an interesting documentary about the LCBO. Developed by homebrewers, so it's not completely impartial but also quite fair. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn555TyJJw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn555TyJJw0 Giving government absolute control over distribution of a non-essential product/service is probably not the best idea, but at least it's better than having that product/service be completely illegal. Ideally they should allow private businesses to sell under very strict guidelines.
- mynegation 9y ago
  As an Ontarian and having previously lived in a country where pretty much anyone can sell alcohol till very late I passionately support LCBO and - as a voter - will support the proposed provincial government controlled marijuana distribution. No, it does not completely prevent alcohol in the hands of minors, late night drinking binges, deaths from methylene, but reduces these cases greatly for sure.
  - saenns 9y ago
    for sure? others might not find your anecdotal evidence as persuasive as you do.
  - kenned3 9y ago
    As an Ontarian and having previously lived in a country where pretty much anyone can sell alcohol till very late i find your comment odd. I lived in the states for several years and you can get liquor at grocery stores, they had private stores which were like 4 times the size and selection of any LCBO. What i do recall seeing is Toronto Liquor being sold in Connecticut for a full 50% less (bottled in Toronto).. I dont recall seeing any "problems", in fact it seems Ontario and Connecticut have similiar death rates and Canada is among the worlds highest despite ourarchaic liquor laws from the 1920's which are almost soviet era (wait in line for a ticket, then wait in line for your item). http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadas-drunk-driving-death-rate-worst-among-wealthy-countries-u-s-study-finds http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadas-drunk-driving-de... you can see canada's rates are 5.4 per 100,000 people and you can see Connecticuts rates here http://c-hit.org/2016/01/17/drunk-driving-fatalities-decline-but-state-ranks-high-in-impaired-drivers/ http://c-hit.org/2016/01/17/drunk-driving-fatalities-decline... Perhaps you have a reason why Canada's death rate from impaired driving is actually higher then the US? PS. I dont even drink, but find it odd the government is in this business and gouges their customers. if it is "bad" for you, why sell it? oh.. thats right.. to stop the bootleggers and fill hte government revenue?
matart 9y ago
Will they sell it at duty free like alcohol is?
- devrandomguy 9y ago
  Screw duty free, the airline should offer cannabis cookies as a snack option. What airline wouldn't like a plane full of chilled out passengers, who are contented to watch reruns of old Disney movies? And I'll take an extra pizza pocket, plz & thx.
gyardley 9y ago
This entire thread is a great example of how many if not most Canadians will passionately defend any old goofy policy, as long as it's different from how the Americans do it. I've lived in a variety of American states as well as Ontario and I really can't believe what I'm reading - anyone defending the selection, knowledge of the staff, price, hours, pretty much anything relating to the LCBO vs. a privatized but regulated market is a few Timbits short of a Snack Pack. I suspect the very same will be true with The Weed Store once it rolls out - way better than prohibition, but much worse than Colorado or Oregon or Washington.
- NovaS1X 9y ago
  If it counts for anything I'm a Canadian and I vehemently oppose any policy like this. The selection and knowledge of my dispensary in Vancouver in invaluable. They even take notes based on experiences of every strain I buy from them so that they can tailor their suggestions to me based on my history and the composition of the strain. I can't just smoke anything, my body only responds well to certain strains, and I trust nobody less than some ignorant, unionized liquor store staff to personalize my experience based on my needs. The quote by Ms. Roach saying " … The person who smokes high-end cannabis, they don't want shwaggy, mass-produced stuff. They don't want Labatt Blue, they want craft." is completely true. edit: spelling/grammar
- dade_ 9y ago
  The LCBO is a business, government run liquor stores and distribution is a policy. LCBO is a well run organization, government run liquor stores is an absurd policy in my mind. Painting both with the same brush is disingenuous.
giarc 9y ago
The one thing missing from most comments I see here is price parity and equality. I've lived in Ontario (government liquor stores) and now live in Alberta (private liquor stores). The big perk about Ontario liquor is that it's the same price no matter what store you walk into. Doesn't matter if you are in a small town of 1000 people with one liquor store or in Toronto with 500 stores. In Alberta, if you are in a small town and your only option is Joe's Liquor Store, you're going to pay $55 for 24 bottles of Canadian that go for $20 less at the Safeway liquor store in a city. And in actuality, you can pay $55 for that case in the middle of Calgary if it's a mom and pop shop. I suspect the same will be true for marijuana. Same prices regardless of what LCBO you walk into.
- aphextron 9y ago
  >I suspect the same will be true for marijuana. Same prices regardless of what LCBO you walk into. You'd be surprised how self regulating the market is for marijuana though. People always want to make the alcohol analogy, but it's a totally different thing. Marijuana has a long tradition of home cultivation and use, as well as a thriving well established black market which will always pick up the slack. Prices tend to be very stable across the board in California at least. Without any government run outlets the price is the same across the entire state.
  - giarc 9y ago
    Here's the government run liquor store in Moosonee, Ontario [0] Moosonee is a town of 2000 people in northern Ontario. It is an 8 hour train ride away from Timmins Ontario (train or plane access only). Timmins is an 8 hour drive away from Toronto. I can't imagine a situation where the marijuana prices in this town would be comparable to downtown Toronto given the amount of labour needed to transport the marijuana to this remote location. And I'm not really speculating, we see this all the time. Citizens of our northern territories (YK, NWT, NT) are used to paying $25/L of milk and so on. Sure this is a bit of hyperbole, but it points to one of the perks of government run/controlled distribution, namely those in the cities can help to subsidize the price for those in smaller towns across Ontario. Is this government controlled model the best? Probably not but let's remember this is unchartered territory. We can look to the individual states for learnings (ie. Colorado, Washington) but Ontario is 1 million km^2 and California is half that with a much greater population density. They are different in many ways. 0 - https://goo.gl/iFNkaC https://goo.gl/iFNkaC
VeronicaJJ123 9y ago
Wait a minute. After telling us that marijuana is bad of use now government wants to get into that business ? This in my opinion is worse sort of corruption. The people who run marijuana businesses should be marijuana enthusiasts who care about themselves and their customers not some government pen pusher. Soon they will treat it as Tobacco and will tax it to death and not to mention kill all innovation in this space.
PoachedSausage 9y ago
Meanwhile, over here in the UK we're still in the "drugs are bad, mmmKay." dark ages. I really hope a major political party runs with a cannabis decriminalisation policy at the next election.
- vidarh 9y ago
  The Lib Dems do [1] have a reasonably enlightened drug policy. Labour is lagging, but I think there's hope of that changing - Corbyn has in the past sponsored a bill for decriminalisation of weed (in 2000) and stated he wanted to decriminalise medicinal use (in 2016).But Labour spans very social liberal and quite socially conservative groups so can't afford to go as far as the Lib Dems on that subject. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/all-drugs-should-be-decriminalised-say-the-liberal-democrats-10338244.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/all-drugs-shou...
- ehecatl 9y ago
  When (if!) the US legalises at the federal level, you can bet the UK will follow shortly thereafter.
tvaughan 9y ago
Seems relevant: https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/09/global-banks-sabotage-uruguays-efforts-legalize-marijuana.html https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/09/global-banks-sabotag...

118 points by fmihaila 9y ago

A step in the right direction, I guess. Ontario can be surprisingly conservative about these things... they only recently started allowing alcohol to be sold in grocery stores. Seems the initial round of legislation will legalize it, but with heavy restrictions.

nasalgoat 9y ago
I really wish they'd step back and let the free market handle it, instead of once again heavily restricting distribution and sales to another bloated government monopoly. Plus, the number of stores at launch is way too low - people will simply continue to purchase higher quality weed for less money from private sellers. It's a bad move all around.
- kogepathic 9y ago
  > instead of once again heavily restricting distribution and sales to another bloated government monopoly. Yes, yes, yes. Why can't they regulate it like cigarettes? The argument about keeping it out of the hands of minors is bullshit. It's already illegal to sell tobacco products to people under age in Ontario. LCBO and the Beer Store are stupid ideas from a bygone era that need to end. Legal monopolies of provincial owned entities should not be permitted. I'm not saying full privatization is the right answer, because I don't believe the free market solution is always best, but at least allow private competition to a crown corp. LCBO has no motivation to innovate because there is little/no competition.
- mainliningfbs 9y ago
  Nah, Canada is past the free market. We have learned that stricter regulations on addictive substances make society a better place.
slavik81 9y ago
The government of Ontario makes a net profit of ~$2B/year off the LCBO and employs about ~7000 people at wages way above what you'd probably see in a privatized market. There's not too much grumbling from consumers, so nobody in government really wants to rock the boat. Having experienced both, as a consumer I prefer the Alberta model with privatized retailers because there are far more stores and the hours are better. Actually, I found this old Fraser Institute report on the privatization of liquor in Alberta to be rather interesting. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/PrivatizationofLiquorAlberta.pdf https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/Privatiz... It's not a big deal for me personally, but there's also more room for unique shops. For example, one of the markets nearby does a lot of specialty whiskey imports.
- wolco 9y ago
  Think of how many more jobs we could have.
noarchy 9y ago
Here's the thing, though. If you refer to an "initial round" of legislation, you're probably assuming another round isn't far away. You have a real-life experiment with which to compare, in the LCBO, to see that progress will extremely slow, and limited. How long did it take to get beer into grocery stores (and even then with some restrictions)? That's beer. How long will it take with weed?

afinlayson 9y ago

Finally! Let's put the money that made drug dealers rich, and put it back into things the people actually care about! Like education, health care.

wolco 9y ago
Or billion dollar gas plants that get cancelled.

iamatworknow 9y ago

I live on the border of New York and Ontario/Quebec and I can't see how this won't spur legalization here. The border is already incredibly porous and the smuggling routes already exist. This will just make it even easier.

drpgq 9y ago
Well another reason to go to Niagara Falls I guess.
vanjoe 9y ago
Personally I wouldn't try smuggling from across, taking beer and smokes across without declaration is significantly less of a risc than taking banned substances. I say this as a Canadian a few minutes from the Washington border.
giarc 9y ago
Smuggling a case of beer across will result in you losing the beer. Smuggling marijuana will result in a felony and never being allowed to cross the border again. It doesn't make sense to illegally transport marijuana across the border just so you can buy it legally from a store.
- iamatworknow 9y ago
  I'm saying it already happens. I grew up with people who literally smuggle weed for a living across the northern border. There are some areas where there is no actual official border[0] where smuggling is happening now. It was already comparatively easier to access in Canada then smuggle to the US, but when it's legal in Canada it will just help fuel the supply being brought over. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akwesasne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akwesasne

plantel 9y ago

Toronto is currently full of dispensaries on every corner. Some are open late and you're always close to one, independent local businesses with people in the community making money and spending it locally. It will be sad to see a government monopoly turn weed distribution into the LCBO style. Expect prices to go up to $15-20g, cut down the number of locations and closes at 9pm.

antoniuschan99 9y ago
I think we all expected it to be like this since we have the LCBO
ape4 9y ago
Police warn organized crime, including the Hells Angels, has infiltrated the medical marijuana market http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/police-warn-organized-crime-including-the-hells-angels-has-infiltrated-the-medical-marijuana-market-1.4067112 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/police-warn-organized-c...
- wolco 9y ago
  Sometimes they release this information to scare and control the population. This is talking about the hell angels getting a medical supply and selling it on the black market. Not the same as running a store and none of this changes by having the lcbo run stores the supplier are licensed by government of Canada.
cortesoft 9y ago
At some point we have to compromise - a lot of people want drugs like marijuana illegal because they DON'T want dispensaries on every corner, open at all hours of the night, selling cheap drugs. Maybe a good starting compromise is, ok, marijuana will be legal and people won't get arrested anymmore, but it will only be sold at a limited number of places for a limited amount of time, for an amount that will keep it from being too prevalent.

JPKab 9y ago

I live in Colorado. I think they are really blowing it by making the stores government owned. In Colorado, the stores are privately owned but very, very strictly regulated. Plants are tracked with an RFID all the way to the products derived from them, with a full chain of custody all the way to purchase. Only adults 21 and up can enter them, with a strict dual-check of identification (once to enter, and again when paying the cashier). The various shops actually end up being very different from each other in surprising ways. They all adhere to the regulations, but some are much larger and more corporate feeling, with lower prices, while others are boutique, specialize in higher quality product, and priced higher. The pace with which new products can be introduced is much faster due to potential producers not having to negotiate with a giant bureaucracy to get a product on the shelves.

macspoofing 9y ago
>I think they are really blowing it by making the stores government owned Considering that you can only buy alcohol through government owned stores, at least it's consistent.
vkou 9y ago
> I think they are really blowing it by making the stores government owned. Why? The largest chain of BC liquor stores is government-owned and operated. They do a pretty decent job of it.
- iamatworknow 9y ago
  Ontario does too. You can complain that the prices are a little high, but the LCBO stores I've been to have always been much cleaner and the staff more attentive, knowledgable, and personable than any privately owned store over the border in New York.
  - dugditches 9y ago
    How often do you talk to the staff at your liquor store? The convenience of buying at a corner store at a convenient time outweighs any of those things in my opinion(US, Quebec, some locations in Ont). With the dollar going back up it'll be better to simply cross the border to buy alcohol and gas again, instead of paying the ridiculous markup.(for context, a 24 of 355ml cans of 'budget' beer is nearly $50 CAD).

3pt14159 9y ago

I'm a Toronto native. These are the forces driving this decision: 1. Provincial government is cash poor. The LCBO is a huge source of cash, what government would give up another source? This isn't taxes, this is profit. "Isn't this just another tax?" One might ask, but no it's not. The reason is that Ontario has fewer alcohol distribution centres than a free market would provide. Most people just do a bigger alcohol run and drive / walk / drive further than their American counterparts. There's queuing occasionally, but usually only before long weekends or holidays. 2. The current dispensaries are run by criminals. The optics of giving a windfall to law breakers aren't great. The police keep shutting them down, and they keep popping up. I'm not bashing them, I think cannabis should have been legalized a long time ago and I think it's unconscionable that we have Canadians addicted to heroin because they were given opioids instead of pot, because pot requires a huge hassle to get approved, and I think dispensaries alleviate that stress, but some operations are huuuuge and most certainly are funnelling money into real criminal organizations. 3. The union at the LCBO is huge and powerful. The jobs, even seasonal ones, pay well and Ontarians aren't outraged because the staff is generally competent and friendly and the stores are clean. 4. Controls over potency are a real problem in the current dispensaries and because of the sketchiness of the current people involved and their distribution networks, the government would have to get involved auditing anyway. I hope that they keep the stores open every day of the week. Many Canadians use pot outside the medical system, but for medical reasons and fast access will mean the black market will finally collapse. I also hope there will be a system for legitimizing certain strains that gain popularity in the US, like the LCBO does for wine.

deskamess 9y ago
It is important that the LCBO not be the only source. It needs to be opened up from the get-go and not have to follow the mini-step half measures that we have to go through to get alcohol in grocery stores. The sourcing of alcohol is still controlled by the province. It is a govt sponsored racket and monopoly.
- bupku5 9y ago
  And the Beer Store is terrible and offers a non-existent selection.

MrBlue 9y ago

LCBO pricing? Get ready for $65 grams! The black market will continue to thrive.

mwdalrymple 9y ago

The LCBO is a good employer for stupid people. Those salaries go right back into the economy. These unionized jobs also come with a great pension providing retirement security. I am quite happy with this. The government privatizing things such as Ontario Hydro has been a huge disaster. At least they are not stupid enough to give this up.

wolco 9y ago
Privating hydro is different because it is still a monopoly. The little guy cannot setup a power company. But this is a new industry with small business being wiped out. Imagine we all had to wait in line for our block of cheese once a week.
- mwdalrymple 9y ago
  But are these little businesses on the books contributing tax revenue?
  - wolco 9y ago
    They would if allowed to continue and brought in legally. Right now they are paying taxes on hydro, water, property taxes and income earned, employee related taxes, insurance and some are charging hst.
matart 9y ago
I don't mind it being LCBOish but pot can come in a lot of forms and I'm not sure the government will be up to providing it in oils, candies, cookies, vape juices, baked goods all around, butter, tea, cola, etc. This is something a small shop would make and sell easily. A lot of people enjoy smoke free pot and I am not certain they will handle that.
stevehiehn 9y ago
'Stupid People'? Come on, that's a real asshole thing to say. You can't be to bright yourself if you think a person is stupid for working an honest job.

microcolonel 9y ago

This is, of course, probably a bad idea. There is a preexisting efficient network of high quality marijuana distribution in Ontario (at least here in Toronto). Even if the province does as well with marijuana as they do with booze (the LCBO is at least a pleasant retailer, aside from the rules about minors touching merchandise during shopping), the black market will be far more attractive to the mid and low shelf market. It is considerably easier to grow and cure marijuana than it is to ferment commercially viable quantities of an attractive alcoholic drink. The ideal legal weed situation is a legitimate version of the black market arrangement, which hasn't been a considerable health problem in any way that could be attributed to poor quality product. Pretending otherwise is just a typical legal trick pulled by established agribusiness/venture firms. Frankly it's hilarious at a time when the province is finally reintroducing private alcohol retailers.

stevehiehn 9y ago

Its interesting that Ontario just introduced the privatization of booze and then turn around and create a monopoly on pot. Well, either way i'm pretty happy that good normal people will no longer be at risk of criminal offenses.

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ericzawo 9y ago

Lifelong Ontarian. I always thought our logic of having a provincially run liquor store was limited in practice. Like, why aren't LCBO stores open 24 hours? Generally, most are open from 10 am to 9 pm. Making them 24 hours could nearly double their workforce. I've been watching closely the way government will carry this out, and its unfortunate they aren't choosing to franchise dispensary permits out to small business. But I suppose Ontario's government would botch that, too. Hell, they're attempting to roll out the opportunity to purchase beer and wine (woo!) at grocery stores — but so far, only the franchise chains are able. Finally, Liquor in Ontario is dumb expensive. I expect them to milk the price of marijuana for all its worth when this finally comes out.

vidarh 9y ago
I don't know about Ontario, but in Norway the reason for having limited opening hours (shorter than the ones you gave), and restricting the number of outlets, and pricing things high is that the government monopoly on these products is not there to maximise sales, but to minimise them. They're only open in the first place because prohibition didn't work and drove sales under ground. So they provide a compromise - limited outlets, restrictions on opening hours etc. - that stave off attempts open up for wider sales and that is "good enough" to prevent most (but not all) black market sale of alcohol. I believe that is the motivation for most alcohol related government monopolies.

tekni5 9y ago

If anyone is interested, there is an interesting documentary about the LCBO. Developed by homebrewers, so it's not completely impartial but also quite fair. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn555TyJJw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn555TyJJw0 Giving government absolute control over distribution of a non-essential product/service is probably not the best idea, but at least it's better than having that product/service be completely illegal. Ideally they should allow private businesses to sell under very strict guidelines.

mynegation 9y ago
As an Ontarian and having previously lived in a country where pretty much anyone can sell alcohol till very late I passionately support LCBO and - as a voter - will support the proposed provincial government controlled marijuana distribution. No, it does not completely prevent alcohol in the hands of minors, late night drinking binges, deaths from methylene, but reduces these cases greatly for sure.
- saenns 9y ago
  for sure? others might not find your anecdotal evidence as persuasive as you do.
- kenned3 9y ago
  As an Ontarian and having previously lived in a country where pretty much anyone can sell alcohol till very late i find your comment odd. I lived in the states for several years and you can get liquor at grocery stores, they had private stores which were like 4 times the size and selection of any LCBO. What i do recall seeing is Toronto Liquor being sold in Connecticut for a full 50% less (bottled in Toronto).. I dont recall seeing any "problems", in fact it seems Ontario and Connecticut have similiar death rates and Canada is among the worlds highest despite ourarchaic liquor laws from the 1920's which are almost soviet era (wait in line for a ticket, then wait in line for your item). http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadas-drunk-driving-death-rate-worst-among-wealthy-countries-u-s-study-finds http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadas-drunk-driving-de... you can see canada's rates are 5.4 per 100,000 people and you can see Connecticuts rates here http://c-hit.org/2016/01/17/drunk-driving-fatalities-decline-but-state-ranks-high-in-impaired-drivers/ http://c-hit.org/2016/01/17/drunk-driving-fatalities-decline... Perhaps you have a reason why Canada's death rate from impaired driving is actually higher then the US? PS. I dont even drink, but find it odd the government is in this business and gouges their customers. if it is "bad" for you, why sell it? oh.. thats right.. to stop the bootleggers and fill hte government revenue?

matart 9y ago

Will they sell it at duty free like alcohol is?

devrandomguy 9y ago
Screw duty free, the airline should offer cannabis cookies as a snack option. What airline wouldn't like a plane full of chilled out passengers, who are contented to watch reruns of old Disney movies? And I'll take an extra pizza pocket, plz & thx.

gyardley 9y ago

This entire thread is a great example of how many if not most Canadians will passionately defend any old goofy policy, as long as it's different from how the Americans do it. I've lived in a variety of American states as well as Ontario and I really can't believe what I'm reading - anyone defending the selection, knowledge of the staff, price, hours, pretty much anything relating to the LCBO vs. a privatized but regulated market is a few Timbits short of a Snack Pack. I suspect the very same will be true with The Weed Store once it rolls out - way better than prohibition, but much worse than Colorado or Oregon or Washington.

NovaS1X 9y ago
If it counts for anything I'm a Canadian and I vehemently oppose any policy like this. The selection and knowledge of my dispensary in Vancouver in invaluable. They even take notes based on experiences of every strain I buy from them so that they can tailor their suggestions to me based on my history and the composition of the strain. I can't just smoke anything, my body only responds well to certain strains, and I trust nobody less than some ignorant, unionized liquor store staff to personalize my experience based on my needs. The quote by Ms. Roach saying " … The person who smokes high-end cannabis, they don't want shwaggy, mass-produced stuff. They don't want Labatt Blue, they want craft." is completely true. edit: spelling/grammar
dade_ 9y ago
The LCBO is a business, government run liquor stores and distribution is a policy. LCBO is a well run organization, government run liquor stores is an absurd policy in my mind. Painting both with the same brush is disingenuous.

giarc 9y ago

The one thing missing from most comments I see here is price parity and equality. I've lived in Ontario (government liquor stores) and now live in Alberta (private liquor stores). The big perk about Ontario liquor is that it's the same price no matter what store you walk into. Doesn't matter if you are in a small town of 1000 people with one liquor store or in Toronto with 500 stores. In Alberta, if you are in a small town and your only option is Joe's Liquor Store, you're going to pay $55 for 24 bottles of Canadian that go for $20 less at the Safeway liquor store in a city. And in actuality, you can pay $55 for that case in the middle of Calgary if it's a mom and pop shop. I suspect the same will be true for marijuana. Same prices regardless of what LCBO you walk into.

aphextron 9y ago
>I suspect the same will be true for marijuana. Same prices regardless of what LCBO you walk into. You'd be surprised how self regulating the market is for marijuana though. People always want to make the alcohol analogy, but it's a totally different thing. Marijuana has a long tradition of home cultivation and use, as well as a thriving well established black market which will always pick up the slack. Prices tend to be very stable across the board in California at least. Without any government run outlets the price is the same across the entire state.
- giarc 9y ago
  Here's the government run liquor store in Moosonee, Ontario [0] Moosonee is a town of 2000 people in northern Ontario. It is an 8 hour train ride away from Timmins Ontario (train or plane access only). Timmins is an 8 hour drive away from Toronto. I can't imagine a situation where the marijuana prices in this town would be comparable to downtown Toronto given the amount of labour needed to transport the marijuana to this remote location. And I'm not really speculating, we see this all the time. Citizens of our northern territories (YK, NWT, NT) are used to paying $25/L of milk and so on. Sure this is a bit of hyperbole, but it points to one of the perks of government run/controlled distribution, namely those in the cities can help to subsidize the price for those in smaller towns across Ontario. Is this government controlled model the best? Probably not but let's remember this is unchartered territory. We can look to the individual states for learnings (ie. Colorado, Washington) but Ontario is 1 million km^2 and California is half that with a much greater population density. They are different in many ways. 0 - https://goo.gl/iFNkaC https://goo.gl/iFNkaC

VeronicaJJ123 9y ago

Wait a minute. After telling us that marijuana is bad of use now government wants to get into that business ? This in my opinion is worse sort of corruption. The people who run marijuana businesses should be marijuana enthusiasts who care about themselves and their customers not some government pen pusher. Soon they will treat it as Tobacco and will tax it to death and not to mention kill all innovation in this space.

PoachedSausage 9y ago

Meanwhile, over here in the UK we're still in the "drugs are bad, mmmKay." dark ages. I really hope a major political party runs with a cannabis decriminalisation policy at the next election.

vidarh 9y ago
The Lib Dems do [1] have a reasonably enlightened drug policy. Labour is lagging, but I think there's hope of that changing - Corbyn has in the past sponsored a bill for decriminalisation of weed (in 2000) and stated he wanted to decriminalise medicinal use (in 2016).But Labour spans very social liberal and quite socially conservative groups so can't afford to go as far as the Lib Dems on that subject. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/all-drugs-should-be-decriminalised-say-the-liberal-democrats-10338244.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/all-drugs-shou...
ehecatl 9y ago
When (if!) the US legalises at the federal level, you can bet the UK will follow shortly thereafter.

tvaughan 9y ago

Seems relevant: https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/09/global-banks-sabotage-uruguays-efforts-legalize-marijuana.html https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/09/global-banks-sabotag...