3 ms·

"There isn't another language that has both the large-scale modularization given by OO and low-level efficiency of direct pointer manipulation and other C featu

by jshen 16y ago

"There isn't another language that has both the large-scale modularization given by OO and low-level efficiency of direct pointer manipulation and other C features." Objective C?

GreenMan 16y ago
Arguably this might be true, however if you add another requirement to the list Joe posted it isn't. Cross platform code is important to many people. I work on large scale, performance intensive, cross platform applications. Microsoft tells me I should be doing everything in C#. Apple tells me I should be doing everything in Objective C. I just get on with it and use something that works. A language that gives me the ability to combine high level design with low level efficiency and run on multiple platforms. I often use a paraphrase of the Winston Churchill quote as well. There are probably many better languages for many other applications, however for high performance, cross platform large scale apps C++ is still the only game in town. Joe's point that all the complexities have reasons behind them is a really good one. I'd suggest reading Stroustrup's "The Design and Evolution of C++" for more information.
- jshen 16y ago
  gcc compiles Obj-C, but without some of the improvements apple has made. I personally wish Obj-C were more common because mindshare is a real issue.
  - woadwarrior01 16y ago
    Ironically, the whole iphone apps goldrush seems to have contributed in a big way to increase its mindshare. Obj-C is very beautifully designed, I especially like how it adds message passing OOP to C with very minimal syntax additions. But then calling objc_msgSend for every message send, does have a small performance penalty attached, which mostly static languages like C++ don't have to pay.
    - wglb 16y ago
      So does C++ have any price to pay for say vtables?
      - woadwarrior01 16y ago
        Thats why I called C++ `mostly static`.
      - kragen 16y ago
        vtables in C++ aren't free, but C++ has a couple of advantages here: • If you're calling a nonvirtual method, you don't have to pay the vtable cost at all, just the cost of passing this. And most methods in C++ are nonvirtual. • A call through a vtable is typically a couple of indexed fetches and an indirect jump. Objective-C's mechanism involves a hash-table lookup, which is a bit slower.
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      > a small performance penalty attached, which mostly static languages like C++ don't have to pay. Then code the performance sensitive parts in C and link it from the language that is best suited to express the solution.

by jshen 16y ago

"There isn't another language that has both the large-scale modularization given by OO and low-level efficiency of direct pointer manipulation and other C features." Objective C?

GreenMan 16y ago

Arguably this might be true, however if you add another requirement to the list Joe posted it isn't. Cross platform code is important to many people. I work on large scale, performance intensive, cross platform applications. Microsoft tells me I should be doing everything in C#. Apple tells me I should be doing everything in Objective C. I just get on with it and use something that works. A language that gives me the ability to combine high level design with low level efficiency and run on multiple platforms. I often use a paraphrase of the Winston Churchill quote as well. There are probably many better languages for many other applications, however for high performance, cross platform large scale apps C++ is still the only game in town. Joe's point that all the complexities have reasons behind them is a really good one. I'd suggest reading Stroustrup's "The Design and Evolution of C++" for more information.

jshen 16y ago
gcc compiles Obj-C, but without some of the improvements apple has made. I personally wish Obj-C were more common because mindshare is a real issue.
- woadwarrior01 16y ago
  Ironically, the whole iphone apps goldrush seems to have contributed in a big way to increase its mindshare. Obj-C is very beautifully designed, I especially like how it adds message passing OOP to C with very minimal syntax additions. But then calling objc_msgSend for every message send, does have a small performance penalty attached, which mostly static languages like C++ don't have to pay.
  - wglb 16y ago
    So does C++ have any price to pay for say vtables?
    - woadwarrior01 16y ago
      Thats why I called C++ `mostly static`.
    - kragen 16y ago
      vtables in C++ aren't free, but C++ has a couple of advantages here: • If you're calling a nonvirtual method, you don't have to pay the vtable cost at all, just the cost of passing this. And most methods in C++ are nonvirtual. • A call through a vtable is typically a couple of indexed fetches and an indirect jump. Objective-C's mechanism involves a hash-table lookup, which is a bit slower.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    > a small performance penalty attached, which mostly static languages like C++ don't have to pay. Then code the performance sensitive parts in C and link it from the language that is best suited to express the solution.