5 ms·

Bootcamps are just too short. I think the sweet spot for a coursework in programming is a year to two years. That's essentially how long my university degree w

Bootcamps are just too short. I think the sweet spot for a coursework in programming is a year to two years. That's essentially how long my university degree was if you remove the non-CS required classes.

eeZah7Ux 9y ago
More like 5 if people want to use the term "engineer" on their CV.
- bigspider421 9y ago
  Disagree. Engineer here - I did a 6 week bootcamp and immediately got hired at Amazon. $150k+, the most I've ever been paid. Still learning tons but my experience was quite positive.
  - ex_amazon_sde 9y ago
    I've been interviewing a lot of people when I was in Amazon and the company had a much, much higher bar.
    - jefflombardjr 9y ago
      It was also likely a much, much smaller company.
  - josefresco 9y ago
    PhD prob helped.
    - bigspider421 9y ago
      My degree is completely unrelated to CS. Although I do have a strong math background which possibly helped...
  - xenihn 9y ago
    What'd you learn in the bootcamp that (you believe) helped you get the role? And what was the application/interview process like?
- sotojuan 9y ago
  Maybe in other countries, but in the US a programmer or software engineer is not bound by any regulations on the title "engineer". Many top computer science programs are not in their university's engineering department and many top universities are not ABET-certified.
- bdcravens 9y ago
  In the US "engineer" among developers is just a word - there are people with one Javascript framework and killer Stack Overflow copy-and-paste skills calling themselves "software engineers". As I said in a thread about this very topic, I feel that a better title is "software technician" (in the same sense as a automotive technician or a dental technician)
wolco 9y ago
And most colleges. I think what is missing is learning to code in a variety of languages vs just one or two can give you a different prospective. When I went to college we learned everything from jcl to php with the core being java. Being able to pick up different languages is one of the most employable skills one could have and that aspect is usually missing from bootcamps.
Jemmeh 9y ago
I get where you're coming from but I think you can shorten it to closer to 6 months provided A) The person is already fairly good at generally using a computer, which is more common these days and B) They are working mad hours. A lot of the boot camps are basically morning to night and that cuts down on time a lot. The ones that are only a month long...well it's a nice introduction to coding I suppose, but I can't see it as much more than that. There's definitely a "too short" but it depends on a lot of factors as for where that line will be.
- sotojuan 9y ago
  I could see six months work - it'd just have to be intensive and under very good teachers (hard to find!).
  - Jemmeh 9y ago
    One of the great things about online coursework is that it requires less staff and everyone can work at a different pace. From what I've read/heard 42 Code School has very little staff and mostly relies on computer courses and peer learning. https://www.42.us.org/ https://www.42.us.org/
    - jefflombardjr 9y ago
      At that point, how is that a boot camp and not a paid tutorial? Why would anyone pay for online course work when there is so much available for free from places like MIT and Stanford? I paid for a boot camp to have access to an instructor with industry experience. Not to learn language syntax and build projects.
      - Jemmeh 9y ago
        Well 42 is a bit different than most bootcamps. 42 Code School is free, it's funded by a French billionaire Xavier Niel who made his fortune from telecommunications and technology. There is a branch in Paris and a branch in Silicon Valley. I'd say it's bootcamp-ish in that it's only programming-relevant coursework you work loads of hours, and you don't get a degree, but it's supposed to be 3-5 years total. Last I saw you have to be 30 or younger to go there. I think the main advantage there is the peer to peer learning and long hours. There's group projects. Yes, your coursework is all on the computer, but you are there morning to night surrounded by people doing the same thing, so you help each other out. That also ends up being a great network later on, which is one of the best things people normally get from college. They also have some special industry guests. Even Paul Graham was praising it. https://twitter.com/paulg/status/847844863727087616?lang=en https://twitter.com/paulg/status/847844863727087616?lang=en

eeZah7Ux 9y ago

More like 5 if people want to use the term "engineer" on their CV.

bigspider421 9y ago
Disagree. Engineer here - I did a 6 week bootcamp and immediately got hired at Amazon. $150k+, the most I've ever been paid. Still learning tons but my experience was quite positive.
- ex_amazon_sde 9y ago
  I've been interviewing a lot of people when I was in Amazon and the company had a much, much higher bar.
  - jefflombardjr 9y ago
    It was also likely a much, much smaller company.
- josefresco 9y ago
  PhD prob helped.
  - bigspider421 9y ago
    My degree is completely unrelated to CS. Although I do have a strong math background which possibly helped...
- xenihn 9y ago
  What'd you learn in the bootcamp that (you believe) helped you get the role? And what was the application/interview process like?
sotojuan 9y ago
Maybe in other countries, but in the US a programmer or software engineer is not bound by any regulations on the title "engineer". Many top computer science programs are not in their university's engineering department and many top universities are not ABET-certified.
bdcravens 9y ago
In the US "engineer" among developers is just a word - there are people with one Javascript framework and killer Stack Overflow copy-and-paste skills calling themselves "software engineers". As I said in a thread about this very topic, I feel that a better title is "software technician" (in the same sense as a automotive technician or a dental technician)

wolco 9y ago

And most colleges. I think what is missing is learning to code in a variety of languages vs just one or two can give you a different prospective. When I went to college we learned everything from jcl to php with the core being java. Being able to pick up different languages is one of the most employable skills one could have and that aspect is usually missing from bootcamps.

Jemmeh 9y ago

I get where you're coming from but I think you can shorten it to closer to 6 months provided A) The person is already fairly good at generally using a computer, which is more common these days and B) They are working mad hours. A lot of the boot camps are basically morning to night and that cuts down on time a lot. The ones that are only a month long...well it's a nice introduction to coding I suppose, but I can't see it as much more than that. There's definitely a "too short" but it depends on a lot of factors as for where that line will be.

sotojuan 9y ago
I could see six months work - it'd just have to be intensive and under very good teachers (hard to find!).
- Jemmeh 9y ago
  One of the great things about online coursework is that it requires less staff and everyone can work at a different pace. From what I've read/heard 42 Code School has very little staff and mostly relies on computer courses and peer learning. https://www.42.us.org/ https://www.42.us.org/
  - jefflombardjr 9y ago
    At that point, how is that a boot camp and not a paid tutorial? Why would anyone pay for online course work when there is so much available for free from places like MIT and Stanford? I paid for a boot camp to have access to an instructor with industry experience. Not to learn language syntax and build projects.
    - Jemmeh 9y ago
      Well 42 is a bit different than most bootcamps. 42 Code School is free, it's funded by a French billionaire Xavier Niel who made his fortune from telecommunications and technology. There is a branch in Paris and a branch in Silicon Valley. I'd say it's bootcamp-ish in that it's only programming-relevant coursework you work loads of hours, and you don't get a degree, but it's supposed to be 3-5 years total. Last I saw you have to be 30 or younger to go there. I think the main advantage there is the peer to peer learning and long hours. There's group projects. Yes, your coursework is all on the computer, but you are there morning to night surrounded by people doing the same thing, so you help each other out. That also ends up being a great network later on, which is one of the best things people normally get from college. They also have some special industry guests. Even Paul Graham was praising it. https://twitter.com/paulg/status/847844863727087616?lang=en https://twitter.com/paulg/status/847844863727087616?lang=en