7 ms·

"Ninety-seven percent of [US] federal convictions and ninety-four percent of state convictions are the results of guilty pleas." https://www.themarshallproject

"Ninety-seven percent of [US] federal convictions and ninety-four percent of state convictions are the results of guilty pleas." https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargaining-and-the-innocent#.kS7dr5qFV https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargainin... Definitely time to get the lawyers OUT of government.

vacri 9y ago
Perhaps instead it's time to work on prevention, rather than cure?
BearGoesChirp 9y ago
Plea deals need to be ended. Allowing any sort of plea deal is imposing a punishment for demanding one's rights.
- xeromal 9y ago
  If we end plea deals entirely, will we have to go to court for silly things like speeding tickets?
  - kbsletten 9y ago
    Yes, which would have the effect of cutting down on speeding tickets issued since it's an extra court date for the officer. Many can't be bothered already when you take a ticket to court.
    - KekDemaga 9y ago
      Summary violations are reasonable enough in my opinion as the fine doesn't increase by virtue of attending court.
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    Speeding tickets aren't criminal offenses.
  - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
    Require the police to prove their point, make it take some actual work, and perhaps departments will stop using them as a revenue source and focus on more dangerous driving issues than someone going 5 over.
- nols 9y ago
  What if someone did it and is willing to admit it? Still force them to go to trial, a trial that may take longer than the punishment for their crime? And victims too, say someone robs you, now you're forced to take time off work to attend a trial for the person that admitted to robbing you and also doesn't want a trial. Plus there would need to be a massive expansion of the court system to accommodate trials for everyone. Where's the money to pay for that going to come from? Criminal justice reform is necessary, removing plea deals completely is foolishly short sighted.
  - Zigurd 9y ago
    What if someone did it and is willing to admit it? Under current policies, that results in more lenient punishment than the innocent who fight their charges. So, yes, try them. Where is the money for that going to come from? Ending the Drug War would cut the number of criminal cases by more than half.
    - wil421 9y ago
      The whole point of a plea deal is to give a more lenient sentence in exchange for admitting guilt. If that wasn't the case everyone would just go to trial for everything, there's always a chance of getting out. Even traffic court works this way.
      - Zigurd 9y ago
        In theory. In practice, extreme punishments, along with penury from the costs of a defense, have to be threatened because the CJ system has lost the ability to deliver justice at trial.
      - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
        >The whole point of a plea deal is to give a more lenient sentence in exchange for admitting guilt. Which is the same thing as giving a more extreme sentence to someone insisting on their right to a trial.
  - gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
visarga 9y ago
Well, that's still lower than Japanese police conviction rate. According to The Economist, 95% of people arrested in Japan sign confessions, and Japanese courts convict 99.9% of those who come before them. You're practically judged by the street cop or prosecutor that makes the arrest. Source: The Whole Story on Japan’s 99% Conviction Rate, and the Corruption that Follows - Confessing for Nothing http://skeptikai.com/2013/09/28/the-whole-story-on-japans-99-conviction-rate-and-the-corruption-that-follows/ http://skeptikai.com/2013/09/28/the-whole-story-on-japans-99...
- mikekchar 9y ago
  Unfortunately, despite the title of the story, it presents only one particular aspect. Wikipedia does a much better job of discussing the issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan#Conviction_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Jap... Specifically, the link you specify gives very misleading information from some of it's sources. For example when discussing Ramseyer and Rasmusen's paper, they quote a part out of context from the introduction of the paper and conclude that the paper indicates that corruption among judges is the reason for high conviction rates. However, if you look at Wikipedia's summary of the conclusion, you get a completely different perspective: "In murder, U.S. police arrested 19,000 people for 26,000 murders, in which 75% were prosecuted and courts convicted 12,000 people. In Japan, 1,800 people were arrested for 1,300 murders, but prosecutors tried only 43%. Had the allegation that Japanese prosecutors use weak evidence mostly based on (forced) confessions to achieve convictions been true, the larger proportion of arrests would have resulted in prosecutions and eventual conviction. But the opposite is true. In fact, the data indicates that Japanese prosecutors bring charges only when the evidence is overwhelming and likelihood of conviction is near absolute, which gives a greater incentive for the accused to confess and aim for a lighter sentence, which, in turn, results in a high rate for confession." Even though I live in Japan, I don't actually know that much about the justice system. The one time I've seen the police in action they were incredibly lenient (My friend, who suffered from schizophrenia violated the terms of her visa and also punched a police officer, yet they treated her incredibly kindly and didn't even arrest her). I often say this in threads about Japan. There are problems here just like anywhere else. Unfortunately, however, it seems to be fairly profitable to write stories in newspapers that promote stereotypes of foreign countries, including Japan. I would recommend trying your best to track down primary sources before you make any conclusions about these kinds of stories.
16bytes 9y ago
While your link raises a number of interesting arguments, that statistic doesn't stand by itself. By and large, the vast majority of people that appear before the courts are guilty. If the guilty/not-guilty split were 50/50, it would indicate completely indiscriminate policing. So, to make a determination about the false-guilty pleas, we'd need some data those in particular. That is to say, that statistic combines true-guilty and false-guilty, so you can't make an argument that too many people are forces to plea guilty. At least with that statement alone.
- randcraw 9y ago
  True. That invites the question, can we know what proportion of the prosecuted are guilty? I think we can, but we would need to hire a pool of people to secretly serve as test subjects -- to commit a crime (or not) then be charged for it (or not) and tried for it, and only reveal their true status after their case reached a verdict. Only then could we get a good idea how fair the legal system really is. The invention of such a clandestine "Justice League" would be a pretty interesting way to measure whether any local or national police/justice system is fair and effective.
- grasshopperpurp 9y ago
  It doesn't stand by itself, but when viewed in conjunction with what we know about the legal system and how defendants are strong-armed by all sides to accept plea deals, it's sickening.

vacri 9y ago

Perhaps instead it's time to work on prevention, rather than cure?

BearGoesChirp 9y ago

Plea deals need to be ended. Allowing any sort of plea deal is imposing a punishment for demanding one's rights.

xeromal 9y ago
If we end plea deals entirely, will we have to go to court for silly things like speeding tickets?
- kbsletten 9y ago
  Yes, which would have the effect of cutting down on speeding tickets issued since it's an extra court date for the officer. Many can't be bothered already when you take a ticket to court.
  - KekDemaga 9y ago
    Summary violations are reasonable enough in my opinion as the fine doesn't increase by virtue of attending court.
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  Speeding tickets aren't criminal offenses.
- BearGoesChirp 9y ago
  Require the police to prove their point, make it take some actual work, and perhaps departments will stop using them as a revenue source and focus on more dangerous driving issues than someone going 5 over.
nols 9y ago
What if someone did it and is willing to admit it? Still force them to go to trial, a trial that may take longer than the punishment for their crime? And victims too, say someone robs you, now you're forced to take time off work to attend a trial for the person that admitted to robbing you and also doesn't want a trial. Plus there would need to be a massive expansion of the court system to accommodate trials for everyone. Where's the money to pay for that going to come from? Criminal justice reform is necessary, removing plea deals completely is foolishly short sighted.
- Zigurd 9y ago
  What if someone did it and is willing to admit it? Under current policies, that results in more lenient punishment than the innocent who fight their charges. So, yes, try them. Where is the money for that going to come from? Ending the Drug War would cut the number of criminal cases by more than half.
  - wil421 9y ago
    The whole point of a plea deal is to give a more lenient sentence in exchange for admitting guilt. If that wasn't the case everyone would just go to trial for everything, there's always a chance of getting out. Even traffic court works this way.
    - Zigurd 9y ago
      In theory. In practice, extreme punishments, along with penury from the costs of a defense, have to be threatened because the CJ system has lost the ability to deliver justice at trial.
    - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
      >The whole point of a plea deal is to give a more lenient sentence in exchange for admitting guilt. Which is the same thing as giving a more extreme sentence to someone insisting on their right to a trial.
- gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago

visarga 9y ago

Well, that's still lower than Japanese police conviction rate. According to The Economist, 95% of people arrested in Japan sign confessions, and Japanese courts convict 99.9% of those who come before them. You're practically judged by the street cop or prosecutor that makes the arrest. Source: The Whole Story on Japan’s 99% Conviction Rate, and the Corruption that Follows - Confessing for Nothing http://skeptikai.com/2013/09/28/the-whole-story-on-japans-99-conviction-rate-and-the-corruption-that-follows/ http://skeptikai.com/2013/09/28/the-whole-story-on-japans-99...

mikekchar 9y ago
Unfortunately, despite the title of the story, it presents only one particular aspect. Wikipedia does a much better job of discussing the issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan#Conviction_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Jap... Specifically, the link you specify gives very misleading information from some of it's sources. For example when discussing Ramseyer and Rasmusen's paper, they quote a part out of context from the introduction of the paper and conclude that the paper indicates that corruption among judges is the reason for high conviction rates. However, if you look at Wikipedia's summary of the conclusion, you get a completely different perspective: "In murder, U.S. police arrested 19,000 people for 26,000 murders, in which 75% were prosecuted and courts convicted 12,000 people. In Japan, 1,800 people were arrested for 1,300 murders, but prosecutors tried only 43%. Had the allegation that Japanese prosecutors use weak evidence mostly based on (forced) confessions to achieve convictions been true, the larger proportion of arrests would have resulted in prosecutions and eventual conviction. But the opposite is true. In fact, the data indicates that Japanese prosecutors bring charges only when the evidence is overwhelming and likelihood of conviction is near absolute, which gives a greater incentive for the accused to confess and aim for a lighter sentence, which, in turn, results in a high rate for confession." Even though I live in Japan, I don't actually know that much about the justice system. The one time I've seen the police in action they were incredibly lenient (My friend, who suffered from schizophrenia violated the terms of her visa and also punched a police officer, yet they treated her incredibly kindly and didn't even arrest her). I often say this in threads about Japan. There are problems here just like anywhere else. Unfortunately, however, it seems to be fairly profitable to write stories in newspapers that promote stereotypes of foreign countries, including Japan. I would recommend trying your best to track down primary sources before you make any conclusions about these kinds of stories.

16bytes 9y ago

While your link raises a number of interesting arguments, that statistic doesn't stand by itself. By and large, the vast majority of people that appear before the courts are guilty. If the guilty/not-guilty split were 50/50, it would indicate completely indiscriminate policing. So, to make a determination about the false-guilty pleas, we'd need some data those in particular. That is to say, that statistic combines true-guilty and false-guilty, so you can't make an argument that too many people are forces to plea guilty. At least with that statement alone.

randcraw 9y ago
True. That invites the question, can we know what proportion of the prosecuted are guilty? I think we can, but we would need to hire a pool of people to secretly serve as test subjects -- to commit a crime (or not) then be charged for it (or not) and tried for it, and only reveal their true status after their case reached a verdict. Only then could we get a good idea how fair the legal system really is. The invention of such a clandestine "Justice League" would be a pretty interesting way to measure whether any local or national police/justice system is fair and effective.
grasshopperpurp 9y ago
It doesn't stand by itself, but when viewed in conjunction with what we know about the legal system and how defendants are strong-armed by all sides to accept plea deals, it's sickening.