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That's an interesting link. What's particularly noteworthy is the mentioning of the inflationary spread of paper money that the banks issued which had no gold/s

That's an interesting link. What's particularly noteworthy is the mentioning of the inflationary spread of paper money that the banks issued which had no gold/silver etc backing...and the role of the government facilitating this to finance their war. Now, the crypto world was created as a direct response to that problem - nobody can issue fake bitcoins/file coins. You will have to have the cryptographic key to a public address. In that sense while we might be back in 1810 we seems to be branching off into an alternative reality where 'banks' can't produce more coin-notes than they have. I am also not sure anybody would accept a paper note as a substitute for a Bitcoin.

Nursie 9y ago
OTOH a coin ICO seems to be exactly this sort of behaviour, the issuing of effectively un-backed tokens by anyone that wants to. Bitcoin and other crypto-coins are also created without the gold or silver backing of course... they just aren't issued in quite the same way.
- novalis78 9y ago
  I think about it this way: if I get a 20 dollar paper note let's say in 1810 and believe it to represent 20 ounces of silver (simplified to make the point) but upon visiting my bank branch I only find 5 ounces - the bank is insolvent and the paper notes immediately near worthless. In the crypto world 5 filecoin will always be 5 filecoin- and I can see (and trade in and out of them) on a 24/7 basis. That's quite a different trust level to me. In fact I can 'shapeshift' them into hundreds of other coins that I deem more relevant or worthy as a value store at a moments notice. Does not that sound like a superior system, even when granted, it's not perfect (as long as we are dealing with imperfect knowledge of the future and human emotions)
  - Nursie 9y ago
    But it's still not backed by anything, it's still potentially worthless the moment you go to cash it in - you have a better idea of that potential, sure. And maybe filecoin is an exception - most ICOs seem a little scammy at best, with value based purely on speculation and scarcity.
  - wils1245 9y ago
    This seems to reinforce the analogy rather than rebut it. Your coins can still very suddenly go from being worth X worth of goods or services to .01X. It's maybe even worse with crypto, since the only things you can currently buy are dollars or other coins. The ability to "shape shift" your declining currency to better ones assumes you can out-speculate the market in knowing when to exit, and which coins to buy.
EGreg 9y ago
It doesn't matter whether "nobody" can issue fake coins on a particular blockchain. If anyone can issue their own ICO, that's like the banks issuing their own currency. The only difference is that, once issued, you can't stop people from transacting in it (i.e. you can't close their account, or confiscate their money). Libertarians should be thrilled. Fractional Reserve Banking represents millions of individual decisions around the world to lend money, which does not require the Federal Government. Anarcho-Capitalists should be pressing for zero regulation and allowing anyone and their mom to issue any amount of credit money. In the age of technology, this doesn't sound as scary as it would have been in the past, when you had to keep the relative credit of 100000 currencies in your head. For example, the Trustlines network, or Interledger protocol, or Lightning network, will allow people to transact using Trustlines between each other. VISA and other financial merchants may use Trustlines as well. Think about VISA issuing banks, etc. They give you a credit card and they don't know how much you're going to spend on a given day. That credit line is yours. That card is not fiat so the stores don't have to accept it. But now, many do, because they believe the VISA system and the issuing bank will make good on the purchase and exchange their "VISA currency" for money. Same with PayPal, WeChat, AliPay, Venmo, etc. They all have fiat reserves. I personally think regulation is a welcome response to the Free Banking Era and wildcat money, but either way, many communities would benefit from issuing their own currency: Detroit, Greece, etc. Bristol Dollars have Pound reserves and Bristol issues its own currency. I think that it would be really cool if communities could issue their own currencies. Read this: https://qbix.com/blog/ https://qbix.com/blog/
- wils1245 9y ago
  Can you expand on how alternative currencies can help economically depressed communities? I can see the use case of getting money out of poorly managed fiat currencies, as with Greece or Venezuela, but I don't think Detroit's economic problems have anything to do with the dollar itself. The linked blog mentions Detroit, but doesn't go into much detail.
klipt 9y ago
> Now, the crypto world was created as a direct response to that problem - nobody can issue fake bitcoins/file coins Depends on your definition of "fake"? Anyone can ICO a new "real" crypto coin, but what gives those coins value beyond speculation? If I make "klipt-coin" (which would cost me nothing but a little time) will you buy it just because it uses cryptography? If so, I have a crypto-bridge to sell you.

Nursie 9y ago

OTOH a coin ICO seems to be exactly this sort of behaviour, the issuing of effectively un-backed tokens by anyone that wants to. Bitcoin and other crypto-coins are also created without the gold or silver backing of course... they just aren't issued in quite the same way.

novalis78 9y ago
I think about it this way: if I get a 20 dollar paper note let's say in 1810 and believe it to represent 20 ounces of silver (simplified to make the point) but upon visiting my bank branch I only find 5 ounces - the bank is insolvent and the paper notes immediately near worthless. In the crypto world 5 filecoin will always be 5 filecoin- and I can see (and trade in and out of them) on a 24/7 basis. That's quite a different trust level to me. In fact I can 'shapeshift' them into hundreds of other coins that I deem more relevant or worthy as a value store at a moments notice. Does not that sound like a superior system, even when granted, it's not perfect (as long as we are dealing with imperfect knowledge of the future and human emotions)
- Nursie 9y ago
  But it's still not backed by anything, it's still potentially worthless the moment you go to cash it in - you have a better idea of that potential, sure. And maybe filecoin is an exception - most ICOs seem a little scammy at best, with value based purely on speculation and scarcity.
- wils1245 9y ago
  This seems to reinforce the analogy rather than rebut it. Your coins can still very suddenly go from being worth X worth of goods or services to .01X. It's maybe even worse with crypto, since the only things you can currently buy are dollars or other coins. The ability to "shape shift" your declining currency to better ones assumes you can out-speculate the market in knowing when to exit, and which coins to buy.

EGreg 9y ago

It doesn't matter whether "nobody" can issue fake coins on a particular blockchain. If anyone can issue their own ICO, that's like the banks issuing their own currency. The only difference is that, once issued, you can't stop people from transacting in it (i.e. you can't close their account, or confiscate their money). Libertarians should be thrilled. Fractional Reserve Banking represents millions of individual decisions around the world to lend money, which does not require the Federal Government. Anarcho-Capitalists should be pressing for zero regulation and allowing anyone and their mom to issue any amount of credit money. In the age of technology, this doesn't sound as scary as it would have been in the past, when you had to keep the relative credit of 100000 currencies in your head. For example, the Trustlines network, or Interledger protocol, or Lightning network, will allow people to transact using Trustlines between each other. VISA and other financial merchants may use Trustlines as well. Think about VISA issuing banks, etc. They give you a credit card and they don't know how much you're going to spend on a given day. That credit line is yours. That card is not fiat so the stores don't have to accept it. But now, many do, because they believe the VISA system and the issuing bank will make good on the purchase and exchange their "VISA currency" for money. Same with PayPal, WeChat, AliPay, Venmo, etc. They all have fiat reserves. I personally think regulation is a welcome response to the Free Banking Era and wildcat money, but either way, many communities would benefit from issuing their own currency: Detroit, Greece, etc. Bristol Dollars have Pound reserves and Bristol issues its own currency. I think that it would be really cool if communities could issue their own currencies. Read this: https://qbix.com/blog/ https://qbix.com/blog/

wils1245 9y ago
Can you expand on how alternative currencies can help economically depressed communities? I can see the use case of getting money out of poorly managed fiat currencies, as with Greece or Venezuela, but I don't think Detroit's economic problems have anything to do with the dollar itself. The linked blog mentions Detroit, but doesn't go into much detail.

klipt 9y ago

> Now, the crypto world was created as a direct response to that problem - nobody can issue fake bitcoins/file coins Depends on your definition of "fake"? Anyone can ICO a new "real" crypto coin, but what gives those coins value beyond speculation? If I make "klipt-coin" (which would cost me nothing but a little time) will you buy it just because it uses cryptography? If so, I have a crypto-bridge to sell you.