4 ms·

do you see the conflict inherent in arguing both that you want to spend less money on a good and that you want the people providing that good to be more skilled

by lsc 9y ago

do you see the conflict inherent in arguing both that you want to spend less money on a good and that you want the people providing that good to be more skilled? I mean, it's natural to want both of those things, and sometimes, there's some inefficiency that can be fixed that makes things both better and less expensive, but... not usually. Usually, if you want better workers to do a task, you have to pay more, and that costs money. My own impression is that instructor quality varies a lot by institution, though I have never met a college professor who wasn't dramatically better than what you'd expect based on pay.

gt_ 9y ago
This boils down to the added masses of administration staff at the schools. American schools are doing more marketing, recruiting, student finance. I have noticed schools buying huge chunks of real estate in American cities lately too, but not sure why. I only did 2 years of college because I couldn't decide on a major that I was committed enough to justify the mountain of debt at the time. I was starting to work in the film industry and knew film school be a waste. I'm a habitual self-learner so not too sour.
- lsc 9y ago
  maybe? Like I said, sometimes there are inefficiencies. Still, if you want good teachers, you are gonna have a hard time achieving that goal if you don't pay them enough that they don't need another job. Compared to a silicon valley tech company, everyone at just about any college works for peanuts - and education, if you ask me, is way more important than advertising. Personally, I'd compare education to defense; as I wrote on another comment, I want the other people who get to vote on the laws on my country to have an education, just like I don't want other countries to be able to invade mine. Both of these things, I think, effect my safety. The military also might not be particularly efficient, but we've prioritized effectiveness over efficiency. I think that a strong argument can be made that we should do the same with education. I personally have no formal education to speak of. I'm working on changing that, though, and not for financial reasons.
  - lovich 9y ago
    I don't believe we are in disagreement. I would be surprised if there more than a small population of people who were against others getting education. Thelack of faith is coming from colleges, on average, providing a more and more mediocre education that could be replaced by the internet and some decication, while also increasing their costs drastically. When charted by price increase tuition outstrips housing and healthcare which ,I at least would, have considered to have skyrocketed in the past few decades[1] This is all for static information. Math doesn't change, basic comp sci algorithms don't change, classical mechanics don't change, and basic chemistry doesn't change. These arguments might not hold for graduate degrees or higher but most Americans are experiencing the undergraduate programs [1http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d77553fcadcbb551d260000/chart.gif http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d77553fcadcbb551d2...
    - lsc 9y ago
      eh, I think the fundamental bit is that teaching is still skilled labor done by humans; we try to automate and scale it, but then it... kind of becomes a different thing. MOOCs are great; I love Khan Academy; but it's not college. it is a different thing that has advantages and disadvantages. In the end, if you want a good teacher, you need someone who is both inspiring and who understands the edges of the particular field to teach, and those people have other options when it comes to the job market. My impression is that wages for skilled in-demand labor have been going up with housing, healthcare and education... in fact, my impression is that the wages in-demand labor can demand drives the first two of those things. I thought the third was driven by lack of government investment; colleges are a lot less subsidized than they used to be.
inimino 9y ago
> some inefficiency that can be fixed Such as tuition and administrative budgets and endowments ballooning while teacher salaries stay flat?
- lsc 9y ago
  >Such as tuition and administrative budgets and endowments ballooning while teacher salaries stay flat? Is that what is happening? I honestly don't know, but I thought increased tuition was mostly a matter of government cutting subsidies.
lovich 9y ago
Of course I can see the conflict. The problem is that universities have no problem with such conflict. From their perspective they are charging more each year per average student while spending less each year per average teacher. Some of these schools are teaching things on the cutting edge, but how much of that applies to undergraduate degrees? Most of what you get taught there has been the same for decades if not centuries. Universities have had rising costs, but much of that is due to things tangential to actually teaching their students. My own college for instance would completely rip out all of the flowers every few months and replace them so that the campus looked nice to prospective students .
- lsc 9y ago
  >Some of these schools are teaching things on the cutting edge, but how much of that applies to undergraduate degrees? Most of what you get taught there has been the same for decades if not centuries. eh, I think there's a lot to be said for rubbing shoulders with industry notables when you are learning the basics. It can be inspiring. But then, there's also a lot to be said for teachers who are good teachers; that can be inspiring too, in a different way. >Universities have had rising costs, but much of that is due to things tangential to actually teaching their students. My own college for instance would completely rip out all of the flowers every few months and replace them so that the campus looked nice to prospective students . I went to a high school that... looked like a prison. I mean, how it looked was certainly not the first thing I'd change, but it's certainly something I would change. Look at any of the silicon valley tech companies... all of them spend a lot of effort making their campus nice, and personally, I think education is a lot more important to society than advertising.
  - lovich 9y ago
    My comment might have implied that these grounds were nice on the outside. The grounds keeping was done anywhere that prospective students could see. On the inside, the school was converting the study rooms in the dorms or pushing them towards a local hotel because they accepted more students than there were rooms for on campus. I had to live on campus for one year and the room was 182 square feet for 2 people to live in with their bed, desks, clothes, and everything else for the year. With this little space they would also kick you out during summer and holidays so you got 8 months of the year there where they currently charge 6,838. It is not much better than a prison in terms of space or looks on the inside. Even the mattresses were the same as the ones you'd find at a prison or summer camp. I still agree with you that education is important. Schools are no longer selling an education though. They are selling an overpriced "college experience" and giving you the same amount of knowledge that you could get with wikipedia and some text books, and they charge extra for the textbooks

by lsc 9y ago

gt_ 9y ago

This boils down to the added masses of administration staff at the schools. American schools are doing more marketing, recruiting, student finance. I have noticed schools buying huge chunks of real estate in American cities lately too, but not sure why. I only did 2 years of college because I couldn't decide on a major that I was committed enough to justify the mountain of debt at the time. I was starting to work in the film industry and knew film school be a waste. I'm a habitual self-learner so not too sour.

lsc 9y ago
maybe? Like I said, sometimes there are inefficiencies. Still, if you want good teachers, you are gonna have a hard time achieving that goal if you don't pay them enough that they don't need another job. Compared to a silicon valley tech company, everyone at just about any college works for peanuts - and education, if you ask me, is way more important than advertising. Personally, I'd compare education to defense; as I wrote on another comment, I want the other people who get to vote on the laws on my country to have an education, just like I don't want other countries to be able to invade mine. Both of these things, I think, effect my safety. The military also might not be particularly efficient, but we've prioritized effectiveness over efficiency. I think that a strong argument can be made that we should do the same with education. I personally have no formal education to speak of. I'm working on changing that, though, and not for financial reasons.
- lovich 9y ago
  I don't believe we are in disagreement. I would be surprised if there more than a small population of people who were against others getting education. Thelack of faith is coming from colleges, on average, providing a more and more mediocre education that could be replaced by the internet and some decication, while also increasing their costs drastically. When charted by price increase tuition outstrips housing and healthcare which ,I at least would, have considered to have skyrocketed in the past few decades[1] This is all for static information. Math doesn't change, basic comp sci algorithms don't change, classical mechanics don't change, and basic chemistry doesn't change. These arguments might not hold for graduate degrees or higher but most Americans are experiencing the undergraduate programs [1http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d77553fcadcbb551d260000/chart.gif http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d77553fcadcbb551d2...
  - lsc 9y ago
    eh, I think the fundamental bit is that teaching is still skilled labor done by humans; we try to automate and scale it, but then it... kind of becomes a different thing. MOOCs are great; I love Khan Academy; but it's not college. it is a different thing that has advantages and disadvantages. In the end, if you want a good teacher, you need someone who is both inspiring and who understands the edges of the particular field to teach, and those people have other options when it comes to the job market. My impression is that wages for skilled in-demand labor have been going up with housing, healthcare and education... in fact, my impression is that the wages in-demand labor can demand drives the first two of those things. I thought the third was driven by lack of government investment; colleges are a lot less subsidized than they used to be.

inimino 9y ago

> some inefficiency that can be fixed Such as tuition and administrative budgets and endowments ballooning while teacher salaries stay flat?

lsc 9y ago
>Such as tuition and administrative budgets and endowments ballooning while teacher salaries stay flat? Is that what is happening? I honestly don't know, but I thought increased tuition was mostly a matter of government cutting subsidies.

lovich 9y ago

Of course I can see the conflict. The problem is that universities have no problem with such conflict. From their perspective they are charging more each year per average student while spending less each year per average teacher. Some of these schools are teaching things on the cutting edge, but how much of that applies to undergraduate degrees? Most of what you get taught there has been the same for decades if not centuries. Universities have had rising costs, but much of that is due to things tangential to actually teaching their students. My own college for instance would completely rip out all of the flowers every few months and replace them so that the campus looked nice to prospective students .

lsc 9y ago
>Some of these schools are teaching things on the cutting edge, but how much of that applies to undergraduate degrees? Most of what you get taught there has been the same for decades if not centuries. eh, I think there's a lot to be said for rubbing shoulders with industry notables when you are learning the basics. It can be inspiring. But then, there's also a lot to be said for teachers who are good teachers; that can be inspiring too, in a different way. >Universities have had rising costs, but much of that is due to things tangential to actually teaching their students. My own college for instance would completely rip out all of the flowers every few months and replace them so that the campus looked nice to prospective students . I went to a high school that... looked like a prison. I mean, how it looked was certainly not the first thing I'd change, but it's certainly something I would change. Look at any of the silicon valley tech companies... all of them spend a lot of effort making their campus nice, and personally, I think education is a lot more important to society than advertising.
- lovich 9y ago
  My comment might have implied that these grounds were nice on the outside. The grounds keeping was done anywhere that prospective students could see. On the inside, the school was converting the study rooms in the dorms or pushing them towards a local hotel because they accepted more students than there were rooms for on campus. I had to live on campus for one year and the room was 182 square feet for 2 people to live in with their bed, desks, clothes, and everything else for the year. With this little space they would also kick you out during summer and holidays so you got 8 months of the year there where they currently charge 6,838. It is not much better than a prison in terms of space or looks on the inside. Even the mattresses were the same as the ones you'd find at a prison or summer camp. I still agree with you that education is important. Schools are no longer selling an education though. They are selling an overpriced "college experience" and giving you the same amount of knowledge that you could get with wikipedia and some text books, and they charge extra for the textbooks