24 ms·

I see a lot of people talking about the increasing cost of college being part of the reason people are losing faith in degreees. I too, agree that this is a lar

by lovich 9y ago

I see a lot of people talking about the increasing cost of college being part of the reason people are losing faith in degreees. I too, agree that this is a large part. However, did nobody else experience the dumbing down of colleges like I have? I was told growing up that college courses were taught by educated, experienced professors. Yet every year I was there though I got more and more adjunct professors who were working second jobs at supermarkets to make ends meet and TAs who were required to teach a course for their graduate degree but should have never passed the course they were teaching in the first place. The absolute worst I had was an economics course where some TA spent _every_, _single_ class at the whiteboard muttering to herself and trying to draw the charts in our textbook from memory but failing utterly to do so. The entire class complained to the university and they didn't even respond. We all just stopped caring because we given decent grades anyway and pushed through in our degrees. It is no wonder that people lose faith in the colleges when they let that happen and still award you with a degree like you learned something

InclinedPlane 9y ago
Yup. A bachelor's degree from most US colleges is about 3 years of "can you read and learn from reading, at least well enough for the tests?" and maybe a year or so of actual college-level education. I enjoyed my college education and felt I got a lot out of it, but it certainly is possible to get through college without actually gaining much education. Partly that's the fault of the student, but getting a degree from an accredited college or university should actually mean something.
lsc 9y ago
do you see the conflict inherent in arguing both that you want to spend less money on a good and that you want the people providing that good to be more skilled? I mean, it's natural to want both of those things, and sometimes, there's some inefficiency that can be fixed that makes things both better and less expensive, but... not usually. Usually, if you want better workers to do a task, you have to pay more, and that costs money. My own impression is that instructor quality varies a lot by institution, though I have never met a college professor who wasn't dramatically better than what you'd expect based on pay.
- gt_ 9y ago
  This boils down to the added masses of administration staff at the schools. American schools are doing more marketing, recruiting, student finance. I have noticed schools buying huge chunks of real estate in American cities lately too, but not sure why. I only did 2 years of college because I couldn't decide on a major that I was committed enough to justify the mountain of debt at the time. I was starting to work in the film industry and knew film school be a waste. I'm a habitual self-learner so not too sour.
  - lsc 9y ago
    maybe? Like I said, sometimes there are inefficiencies. Still, if you want good teachers, you are gonna have a hard time achieving that goal if you don't pay them enough that they don't need another job. Compared to a silicon valley tech company, everyone at just about any college works for peanuts - and education, if you ask me, is way more important than advertising. Personally, I'd compare education to defense; as I wrote on another comment, I want the other people who get to vote on the laws on my country to have an education, just like I don't want other countries to be able to invade mine. Both of these things, I think, effect my safety. The military also might not be particularly efficient, but we've prioritized effectiveness over efficiency. I think that a strong argument can be made that we should do the same with education. I personally have no formal education to speak of. I'm working on changing that, though, and not for financial reasons.
    - lovich 9y ago
      I don't believe we are in disagreement. I would be surprised if there more than a small population of people who were against others getting education. Thelack of faith is coming from colleges, on average, providing a more and more mediocre education that could be replaced by the internet and some decication, while also increasing their costs drastically. When charted by price increase tuition outstrips housing and healthcare which ,I at least would, have considered to have skyrocketed in the past few decades[1] This is all for static information. Math doesn't change, basic comp sci algorithms don't change, classical mechanics don't change, and basic chemistry doesn't change. These arguments might not hold for graduate degrees or higher but most Americans are experiencing the undergraduate programs [1http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d77553fcadcbb551d260000/chart.gif http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d77553fcadcbb551d2...
simonsarris 9y ago
Yes it's been progressively dumbed down for decades, and 2017 has been a particularly bad year. I summarized some findings here: https://medium.com/@simon.sarris/higher-education-erodes-a7c9983692e0 https://medium.com/@simon.sarris/higher-education-erodes-a7c... (And the HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15174815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15174815) Dropping algebra requirements (something that should be required to graduate from high school), including remedial classes as college credit in the largest state school systems is total insanity. It's crafting High School 2.0.
- lovich 9y ago
  I read your article and wasn't even halfway through it before I came to same conclusion about graduation rates that you did. They are no longer a measure of a goal, but the goal itself. It's quite easy to keep getting graduation rates up if you make everything comically easy

by lovich 9y ago

InclinedPlane 9y ago

Yup. A bachelor's degree from most US colleges is about 3 years of "can you read and learn from reading, at least well enough for the tests?" and maybe a year or so of actual college-level education. I enjoyed my college education and felt I got a lot out of it, but it certainly is possible to get through college without actually gaining much education. Partly that's the fault of the student, but getting a degree from an accredited college or university should actually mean something.

lsc 9y ago

do you see the conflict inherent in arguing both that you want to spend less money on a good and that you want the people providing that good to be more skilled? I mean, it's natural to want both of those things, and sometimes, there's some inefficiency that can be fixed that makes things both better and less expensive, but... not usually. Usually, if you want better workers to do a task, you have to pay more, and that costs money. My own impression is that instructor quality varies a lot by institution, though I have never met a college professor who wasn't dramatically better than what you'd expect based on pay.

gt_ 9y ago
This boils down to the added masses of administration staff at the schools. American schools are doing more marketing, recruiting, student finance. I have noticed schools buying huge chunks of real estate in American cities lately too, but not sure why. I only did 2 years of college because I couldn't decide on a major that I was committed enough to justify the mountain of debt at the time. I was starting to work in the film industry and knew film school be a waste. I'm a habitual self-learner so not too sour.
- lsc 9y ago
  maybe? Like I said, sometimes there are inefficiencies. Still, if you want good teachers, you are gonna have a hard time achieving that goal if you don't pay them enough that they don't need another job. Compared to a silicon valley tech company, everyone at just about any college works for peanuts - and education, if you ask me, is way more important than advertising. Personally, I'd compare education to defense; as I wrote on another comment, I want the other people who get to vote on the laws on my country to have an education, just like I don't want other countries to be able to invade mine. Both of these things, I think, effect my safety. The military also might not be particularly efficient, but we've prioritized effectiveness over efficiency. I think that a strong argument can be made that we should do the same with education. I personally have no formal education to speak of. I'm working on changing that, though, and not for financial reasons.
  - lovich 9y ago
    I don't believe we are in disagreement. I would be surprised if there more than a small population of people who were against others getting education. Thelack of faith is coming from colleges, on average, providing a more and more mediocre education that could be replaced by the internet and some decication, while also increasing their costs drastically. When charted by price increase tuition outstrips housing and healthcare which ,I at least would, have considered to have skyrocketed in the past few decades[1] This is all for static information. Math doesn't change, basic comp sci algorithms don't change, classical mechanics don't change, and basic chemistry doesn't change. These arguments might not hold for graduate degrees or higher but most Americans are experiencing the undergraduate programs [1http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d77553fcadcbb551d260000/chart.gif http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d77553fcadcbb551d2...

simonsarris 9y ago

Yes it's been progressively dumbed down for decades, and 2017 has been a particularly bad year. I summarized some findings here: https://medium.com/@simon.sarris/higher-education-erodes-a7c9983692e0 https://medium.com/@simon.sarris/higher-education-erodes-a7c... (And the HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15174815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15174815) Dropping algebra requirements (something that should be required to graduate from high school), including remedial classes as college credit in the largest state school systems is total insanity. It's crafting High School 2.0.

lovich 9y ago
I read your article and wasn't even halfway through it before I came to same conclusion about graduation rates that you did. They are no longer a measure of a goal, but the goal itself. It's quite easy to keep getting graduation rates up if you make everything comically easy