9 ms·

Between the rising cost of a college degree, anti-free speech movements on campuses, and the declining employability of non-STEM degrees it's not surprising. H

by thrden 9y ago

Between the rising cost of a college degree, anti-free speech movements on campuses, and the declining employability of non-STEM degrees it's not surprising. Hopefully, this will work to reduce the overall cost of colleges.

csydas 9y ago
Non-STEM seeking students really are not a majority in colleges. Per the National Center for Education Statistics on conferred degrees, the number of liberal arts degrees has been on a decline for quite a few decades while STEM and more vocational degrees have been steadily increasing [1]. Slam universities for many reasons, but the students going aren't graduating in arts; they're doing what employers say they want and still not getting jobs. Universities have many problems, but they still are useful. We have all these STEM graduates but no one seems to be hiring them. [1] - https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_322.10.asp?current=yes https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_322.10.a...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rdl 9y ago
  Big difference between, say, a MIT Physics grad (essentially qualified for anything not requiring psychiatric stability) and a third tier or for profit "Information Systems Management" grad.
- lsc 9y ago
  Unemployment is at record lows. Where are you getting that people aren't getting jobs?
  - flukus 9y ago
    Unemployment isn't the metric to look at. Just because someone is employed doesn't mean the job is at all related to the degree. Our office cleaner is a recent IT graduate. Not to mention under employment and people that have just givin up.
    - lsc 9y ago
      People giving up is a different problem. If you have looked for work and determined there is nothing for you out there, it's rational to re-evaluate this periodically, no? If you can't get on the computer once a month, spend some time on dice and send a few resumes, the problem is not the economy; the problem is your mental health. I mean, I'm not saying those people shouldn't be helped; but having more jobs available won't help them if they aren't looking. They need a psychologist or social worker or something. Depression is way more treatable than it used to be.
    - lsc 9y ago
      >Our office cleaner is a recent IT graduate. Dirty secret about the "IT" degrees. I know managers with MIS, CIS, CIT, and similar degrees, but I don't know anyone who got such a degree before they had a solid IT job, who went on to get a solid IT job. Yes, the guidance councilor will imply that it's like a CS degree without the math, but as far as I can tell, it's the "management addon" to your existing IT skills. As far as individual contributor jobs, at least in my experience? you are better off with a philosophy degree.
- epalmer 9y ago
  Note where I work and where my wife works. She works at a public university and I work at a private liberal arts university. We see resistence to skills and competency being taught. Teach them critical thinking and history and they will be fine we hear. We witness lack of critical thinking in some senior administrators which does not give comfort. Students are encouraged to study what their hearts tell them and not consider outcomes. That is employability. I personally know recent grads that are dramatically under employed. They could earn more, much more if they were trades people.
knowaveragejoe 9y ago
I really doubt the (mostly overblown)"anti-free speech movements on campuses" are playing much of a role. The rising cost and declining employability you mention, particularly in juxtaposition with the rising prominence of the vocational trades, probably has a lot more to do with this trend.
- lsc 9y ago
  I disagree... I think that the current wave of Anti-intellectualism is entirely political. the current unemployment rate is under 5%
lsc 9y ago
See, while I can see how college could be unaffordable for the poor, I don't think it is particularly expensive, for what you get. Hell, paying full freight at Stanford is only two teslas for your undergrad, and that degree is going to impress a lot more people for a lot longer than having a fancy car for ten years, and I understand you only pay full freight if you are loaded. Berkeley is even cheaper, and at least by what you are likely to learn, if not who you will learn with, better. You can go to Berkeley for four years for less than the cost of one of those giant trucks that are often paired with artistically applied recreational mud and confederate battle flags, if you've got housing covered elsewhere. As far as luxury goods go, College is an excellent value, and that is only one of the ways you can derive value from college. But yes, college, I think, is a good deal, an excellent value. But it's not affordable for the poor, even state and community colleges, which in California are pretty close to free, well, you need to be able to afford not to work for that time. But... my point is that if you want to make college more affordable, you should focus on subsidizing it, not on cost-cutting. Education, I think, is that last thing a society wants to make worse.
- ken47 9y ago
  Sure, college is a worthwhile investment if you are allowed to attend Stanford or Berkeley-caliber institutions. The vast majority of Americans do not have that opportunity. And in light of America's student loan crisis, what politician in his right mind is going to propose subsidizing college education even more? It would be nice, but it is unrealistic. That is why MOOCs are so important -- a Stanford and Berkeley-caliber education can be made available on a massive scale, for much less than the standard tuition nowadays. People do not recognize it, or do not want to recognize it, but we are in an Industrial Revolution-like period for higher education.
  - lsc 9y ago
    >Sure, college is a worthwhile investment if you are allowed to attend Stanford or Berkeley-caliber institutions. The vast majority of Americans do not have that opportunity. Don't I know it. I'm trying to get in now, and even though the fees seem cheap to me, I'm still at least a year of intensive test prep, study, and a lot of luck away from admissions. Note, I think there's a reasonably large chance that if I take 4 years off for school that I'll have to take a pay cut when I get back (at least relative to industry norms; pay is going up hard) That's not why I want to go, and I don't think that's really what college is for. It's not a trade school. >And in light of America's student loan crisis, what politician in his right mind is going to propose subsidizing college education even more? It would be nice, but it is unrealistic. Because loans on dystopian-fiction terms are a bad idea, and a terrible way to subsidize education. Education should be subsidized directly, like farming and defense. I like having access to fresh food, no matter what is going on in the world. I like not worrying about being invaded. The government spends my tax money on those things, which is fine. I also like people who have the right to vote in my government to have some rudiments of an education. I mean, if this also means they can earn more money, that's great, but for me? It's mostly the voting thing. The government should directly subsidize schools. Make community college free. why not? the existing payments are mere tokens compared to the real cost. Do something about books for community college, too. Books are cheap in the scheme of things, but expensive for the very poor. They are also something that scales. I think MOOCs are great for people who like to learn from video, but they aren't college any more than buying and reading books and doing exercises like I've been doing is college. I mean, these activities are great, and are education, but they lack the socialization aspects, and, I guess what the conservatives would call indoctrination. "conventional wisdom" or "common sense" - Honestly, this Einstein guy sounds pretty nuts. should I read him? What about Bohr? he sounds even more nuts. I mean, I'm several years out, if I keep up my studies, from really having the math to really understand quantum physics. But there are a lot of people who try to apply the concepts therein to philosophy and other things, people who have even less grasp than I do on math. You could spend lifetimes reading all the crank science out there. A reputable university, and the academic system in general provides you a reasonable framework for deciding if something is worth learning about. I mean, it's not 100%, but if I spent 3 years learning the prerequisites to every crank theory out there, I'd never do anything else. I suppose a MOOC with sufficient credibility could do that, too, but I think we're a long way from a MOOC having the academic weight of an established university.

by thrden 9y ago

csydas 9y ago

Non-STEM seeking students really are not a majority in colleges. Per the National Center for Education Statistics on conferred degrees, the number of liberal arts degrees has been on a decline for quite a few decades while STEM and more vocational degrees have been steadily increasing [1]. Slam universities for many reasons, but the students going aren't graduating in arts; they're doing what employers say they want and still not getting jobs. Universities have many problems, but they still are useful. We have all these STEM graduates but no one seems to be hiring them. [1] - https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_322.10.asp?current=yes https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_322.10.a...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rdl 9y ago
Big difference between, say, a MIT Physics grad (essentially qualified for anything not requiring psychiatric stability) and a third tier or for profit "Information Systems Management" grad.
lsc 9y ago
Unemployment is at record lows. Where are you getting that people aren't getting jobs?
- flukus 9y ago
  Unemployment isn't the metric to look at. Just because someone is employed doesn't mean the job is at all related to the degree. Our office cleaner is a recent IT graduate. Not to mention under employment and people that have just givin up.
  - lsc 9y ago
    People giving up is a different problem. If you have looked for work and determined there is nothing for you out there, it's rational to re-evaluate this periodically, no? If you can't get on the computer once a month, spend some time on dice and send a few resumes, the problem is not the economy; the problem is your mental health. I mean, I'm not saying those people shouldn't be helped; but having more jobs available won't help them if they aren't looking. They need a psychologist or social worker or something. Depression is way more treatable than it used to be.
  - lsc 9y ago
    >Our office cleaner is a recent IT graduate. Dirty secret about the "IT" degrees. I know managers with MIS, CIS, CIT, and similar degrees, but I don't know anyone who got such a degree before they had a solid IT job, who went on to get a solid IT job. Yes, the guidance councilor will imply that it's like a CS degree without the math, but as far as I can tell, it's the "management addon" to your existing IT skills. As far as individual contributor jobs, at least in my experience? you are better off with a philosophy degree.
epalmer 9y ago
Note where I work and where my wife works. She works at a public university and I work at a private liberal arts university. We see resistence to skills and competency being taught. Teach them critical thinking and history and they will be fine we hear. We witness lack of critical thinking in some senior administrators which does not give comfort. Students are encouraged to study what their hearts tell them and not consider outcomes. That is employability. I personally know recent grads that are dramatically under employed. They could earn more, much more if they were trades people.

knowaveragejoe 9y ago

I really doubt the (mostly overblown)"anti-free speech movements on campuses" are playing much of a role. The rising cost and declining employability you mention, particularly in juxtaposition with the rising prominence of the vocational trades, probably has a lot more to do with this trend.

lsc 9y ago
I disagree... I think that the current wave of Anti-intellectualism is entirely political. the current unemployment rate is under 5%

lsc 9y ago

See, while I can see how college could be unaffordable for the poor, I don't think it is particularly expensive, for what you get. Hell, paying full freight at Stanford is only two teslas for your undergrad, and that degree is going to impress a lot more people for a lot longer than having a fancy car for ten years, and I understand you only pay full freight if you are loaded. Berkeley is even cheaper, and at least by what you are likely to learn, if not who you will learn with, better. You can go to Berkeley for four years for less than the cost of one of those giant trucks that are often paired with artistically applied recreational mud and confederate battle flags, if you've got housing covered elsewhere. As far as luxury goods go, College is an excellent value, and that is only one of the ways you can derive value from college. But yes, college, I think, is a good deal, an excellent value. But it's not affordable for the poor, even state and community colleges, which in California are pretty close to free, well, you need to be able to afford not to work for that time. But... my point is that if you want to make college more affordable, you should focus on subsidizing it, not on cost-cutting. Education, I think, is that last thing a society wants to make worse.

ken47 9y ago
Sure, college is a worthwhile investment if you are allowed to attend Stanford or Berkeley-caliber institutions. The vast majority of Americans do not have that opportunity. And in light of America's student loan crisis, what politician in his right mind is going to propose subsidizing college education even more? It would be nice, but it is unrealistic. That is why MOOCs are so important -- a Stanford and Berkeley-caliber education can be made available on a massive scale, for much less than the standard tuition nowadays. People do not recognize it, or do not want to recognize it, but we are in an Industrial Revolution-like period for higher education.
- lsc 9y ago
  >Sure, college is a worthwhile investment if you are allowed to attend Stanford or Berkeley-caliber institutions. The vast majority of Americans do not have that opportunity. Don't I know it. I'm trying to get in now, and even though the fees seem cheap to me, I'm still at least a year of intensive test prep, study, and a lot of luck away from admissions. Note, I think there's a reasonably large chance that if I take 4 years off for school that I'll have to take a pay cut when I get back (at least relative to industry norms; pay is going up hard) That's not why I want to go, and I don't think that's really what college is for. It's not a trade school. >And in light of America's student loan crisis, what politician in his right mind is going to propose subsidizing college education even more? It would be nice, but it is unrealistic. Because loans on dystopian-fiction terms are a bad idea, and a terrible way to subsidize education. Education should be subsidized directly, like farming and defense. I like having access to fresh food, no matter what is going on in the world. I like not worrying about being invaded. The government spends my tax money on those things, which is fine. I also like people who have the right to vote in my government to have some rudiments of an education. I mean, if this also means they can earn more money, that's great, but for me? It's mostly the voting thing. The government should directly subsidize schools. Make community college free. why not? the existing payments are mere tokens compared to the real cost. Do something about books for community college, too. Books are cheap in the scheme of things, but expensive for the very poor. They are also something that scales. I think MOOCs are great for people who like to learn from video, but they aren't college any more than buying and reading books and doing exercises like I've been doing is college. I mean, these activities are great, and are education, but they lack the socialization aspects, and, I guess what the conservatives would call indoctrination. "conventional wisdom" or "common sense" - Honestly, this Einstein guy sounds pretty nuts. should I read him? What about Bohr? he sounds even more nuts. I mean, I'm several years out, if I keep up my studies, from really having the math to really understand quantum physics. But there are a lot of people who try to apply the concepts therein to philosophy and other things, people who have even less grasp than I do on math. You could spend lifetimes reading all the crank science out there. A reputable university, and the academic system in general provides you a reasonable framework for deciding if something is worth learning about. I mean, it's not 100%, but if I spent 3 years learning the prerequisites to every crank theory out there, I'd never do anything else. I suppose a MOOC with sufficient credibility could do that, too, but I think we're a long way from a MOOC having the academic weight of an established university.