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> In no way was Alice's identity stolen - that's tautologically impossible. I see this as you being too strict with your definition of "identity". We, as peop

> In no way was Alice's identity stolen - that's tautologically impossible. I see this as you being too strict with your definition of "identity". We, as people, have multiple identities. We have one with our government, another with our employer, another with our friends, another on pseudonymous websites, etc. "Stolen identity" in this sense means Alice's attributes (the ones which Big Bank uses to identify a person) have been compromised by a 3rd party. It's not that all of Alice's identity has been compromised -- only a subset of her identity. Sadly that subset almost entirely consists of "something you know" (which the internet usually also knows) rather than "something you have" (like a government-issued ID) or "something you are" (biological traits). I totally agree about the rat race. I think the credit bureaus are complicit in keeping the burden of credit identity low and the availability of credit reports high in the US, both of which lead to perverse incentives for {credit bureaus, consumers, creditors, governments, etc}. But they aren't alone. Credit card systems {VISA, Mastercard, AMEX, Discover, etc} and credit card merchants have done the same, causing the US to fall far behind other developed countries in consumer security. Additionally, I've heard horror stories about the effort required for consumers to "prove" to credit bureaus that their identity was stolen. It sounds a lot like the insurance company's policies in The Rainmaker.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
> I see this as you being too strict with your definition of "identity". > We, as people, have multiple identities. We have one with our government, another with our employer, another with our friends, another on pseudonymous websites, etc. Which is not relevant here, as this is not about different sets of attributes pointing to the same body, but about the exact same set of attributes being claimed to only possibly be pointing to one body (hence they supposedly identify Alice) while it is claimed at the same time that they can be replicated by a "thief", which necessarily implies that they don't identify Alice, and hence are not an identity, therefore tautological impossibility. For example, it is claimed that being able to say the DoB of Alice is an attribute that identifies Alice's body. Then, it is also claimed that somebody else saying Alice's DoB supposedly is an act of stealing her identity, and that the set of such people is non-empty. Which means that being able to say Alice's DoB is not actually an identity in the first place, much less one that could be stolen.
- jdironman 9y ago
  So the only way around this is to disregard information about a person other than information that 100% without a doubt identifies that person making a purchase is who they say they are? I am just genuinely curious.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
    Around what? The fact that the term "identity theft" is nonsensical? There is no way around that, it just is. As for fraud: There probably is no easy way around it. But that doesn't mean it's not fraud.
    - jdironman 9y ago
      I was not saying either really. I was asking what sure fire way we have other than a number / name for identity.
      - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
        Well, there is biometry, with the simplest form being a picture, if you want to somewhat reliably identify people.
        pixl97 9y ago
        Out of 7 billion people, a fair number of them look like you. I'd hate to have an ass for a twin in your world.
        TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        While I thoroughly agree with everything you've said on the subject thus far... How does being in possession of a picture, or any other biometric data, help? These data are reproducible, like any other attribute that supposedly identifies only-Alice.
        9y ago
mycall 9y ago
Here's a typical story. Online loan firm gives money to someone. Months later, they default, so they call who they think is the holder of the debt. That person has no clue what they are talking about. Finds out through first ever credit report they are defrauded. Victim calls loan firm, who requests lots of proof of existence as well as a police report, before they will help them. Process takes weeks. Victim finds out they signed up at Equifax during hack. Now they are in worse shape.
- hu-67 9y ago
  Why are they in worse shape? A well written fb post + patreon/gofund me link or YouTube clip with a few tears shed will rectify things. Our YC 2018 submission is going to automate this process with ex DeepMind employees and some Russians. A micro celeb in every home by 2020. Just download the app and leak your data the most profitable way.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago

> I see this as you being too strict with your definition of "identity". > We, as people, have multiple identities. We have one with our government, another with our employer, another with our friends, another on pseudonymous websites, etc. Which is not relevant here, as this is not about different sets of attributes pointing to the same body, but about the exact same set of attributes being claimed to only possibly be pointing to one body (hence they supposedly identify Alice) while it is claimed at the same time that they can be replicated by a "thief", which necessarily implies that they don't identify Alice, and hence are not an identity, therefore tautological impossibility. For example, it is claimed that being able to say the DoB of Alice is an attribute that identifies Alice's body. Then, it is also claimed that somebody else saying Alice's DoB supposedly is an act of stealing her identity, and that the set of such people is non-empty. Which means that being able to say Alice's DoB is not actually an identity in the first place, much less one that could be stolen.

jdironman 9y ago
So the only way around this is to disregard information about a person other than information that 100% without a doubt identifies that person making a purchase is who they say they are? I am just genuinely curious.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  Around what? The fact that the term "identity theft" is nonsensical? There is no way around that, it just is. As for fraud: There probably is no easy way around it. But that doesn't mean it's not fraud.
  - jdironman 9y ago
    I was not saying either really. I was asking what sure fire way we have other than a number / name for identity.
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
      Well, there is biometry, with the simplest form being a picture, if you want to somewhat reliably identify people.
      - pixl97 9y ago
        Out of 7 billion people, a fair number of them look like you. I'd hate to have an ass for a twin in your world.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        While I thoroughly agree with everything you've said on the subject thus far... How does being in possession of a picture, or any other biometric data, help? These data are reproducible, like any other attribute that supposedly identifies only-Alice.
        9y ago

mycall 9y ago

Here's a typical story. Online loan firm gives money to someone. Months later, they default, so they call who they think is the holder of the debt. That person has no clue what they are talking about. Finds out through first ever credit report they are defrauded. Victim calls loan firm, who requests lots of proof of existence as well as a police report, before they will help them. Process takes weeks. Victim finds out they signed up at Equifax during hack. Now they are in worse shape.

hu-67 9y ago
Why are they in worse shape? A well written fb post + patreon/gofund me link or YouTube clip with a few tears shed will rectify things. Our YC 2018 submission is going to automate this process with ex DeepMind employees and some Russians. A micro celeb in every home by 2020. Just download the app and leak your data the most profitable way.