4 ms·

Is mace lethal? Putting it at the same force level as tasers seems weird.

by plopz 9y ago

tomschlick 9y ago
No, its classified as "less lethal" which is the same as tasers, batons, bean bag rounds, etc. What people don't realize is that before tasers the method of making someone comply (when fighting handcuffs being put on) was batons or actual punches. Yes tasers may cause health issues in 0.001% of uses but batons and punches would cause many more. Also, a lot of officers don't even carry mace anymore as it generally sucks for everyone when its employed. They are going to get it on them via wind or handling the suspect and it impacts their ability to function.
- megous 9y ago
  > Yes tasers may cause health issues in 0.001% of uses... This is simply not true and weakens your argument quite a bit.
  - tomschlick 9y ago
    Do you have any proof? The article listed states 276 related reports of death after taser use since 2000. I'd imagine tasers are used a few hundred times per day across the US, if not more.
    - bustadjustme 9y ago
      Yeah your number's surprisingly (to me) actually not far off. Use of Tasers varies pretty widely from department to department -- according to [1] the Richmond County SD reports about 0.053 uses per officer-month, Miami-Dade PD about 0.0074 uses per officer-month, and Seattle PD about 0.056 uses per officer-month. Extrapolating the RCSD value across the US, with over 800k officers total [2], it comes out to about 43k uses per month. Given the ~200 months over which this data was gathered, that's 9.2M uses, which makes the 276 fatalities only 0.003% of all incidents (as a best-guess). Obviously that in no way implies Taser's behavior was ethical; but it's actually a surprisingly low fatality rate for a weapon still considered somewhat lethal. [1] https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/231176.pdf https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/231176.pdf [2] https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf
- QAPereo 9y ago
  There s a whole other level of accountability with devices which leave marks.
- int_19h 9y ago
  I would actually be curious what is the ratio of deaths between batons and tasers. It might not seem obvious, but I suspect that people tend to be a lot more careful with direct application of force that they can feel (if you have ever punched or hit someone else hard, you know what I mean). Tasers make it much more... impersonal? I dunno what the right word is, but it seems like it's much easier to kill with a Taser while remaining cool, than to do the same with a baton.

Is mace lethal? Putting it at the same force level as tasers seems weird.

by plopz 9y ago

Is mace lethal? Putting it at the same force level as tasers seems weird.

No, its classified as "less lethal" which is the same as tasers, batons, bean bag rounds, etc. What people don't realize is that before tasers the method of making someone comply (when fighting handcuffs being put on) was batons or actual punches. Yes tasers may cause health issues in 0.001% of uses but batons and punches would cause many more. Also, a lot of officers don't even carry mace anymore as it generally sucks for everyone when its employed. They are going to get it on them via wind or handling the suspect and it impacts their ability to function.

megous 9y ago
> Yes tasers may cause health issues in 0.001% of uses... This is simply not true and weakens your argument quite a bit.
- tomschlick 9y ago
  Do you have any proof? The article listed states 276 related reports of death after taser use since 2000. I'd imagine tasers are used a few hundred times per day across the US, if not more.
  - bustadjustme 9y ago
    Yeah your number's surprisingly (to me) actually not far off. Use of Tasers varies pretty widely from department to department -- according to [1] the Richmond County SD reports about 0.053 uses per officer-month, Miami-Dade PD about 0.0074 uses per officer-month, and Seattle PD about 0.056 uses per officer-month. Extrapolating the RCSD value across the US, with over 800k officers total [2], it comes out to about 43k uses per month. Given the ~200 months over which this data was gathered, that's 9.2M uses, which makes the 276 fatalities only 0.003% of all incidents (as a best-guess). Obviously that in no way implies Taser's behavior was ethical; but it's actually a surprisingly low fatality rate for a weapon still considered somewhat lethal. [1] https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/231176.pdf https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/231176.pdf [2] https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf
QAPereo 9y ago
There s a whole other level of accountability with devices which leave marks.
int_19h 9y ago
I would actually be curious what is the ratio of deaths between batons and tasers. It might not seem obvious, but I suspect that people tend to be a lot more careful with direct application of force that they can feel (if you have ever punched or hit someone else hard, you know what I mean). Tasers make it much more... impersonal? I dunno what the right word is, but it seems like it's much easier to kill with a Taser while remaining cool, than to do the same with a baton.