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Two points: 1) Hurricanes are actually harmless to planes. The only part of the flight that includes any danger is landing, due to wind and low visibility. But

by SeoxyS 9y ago

Two points: 1) Hurricanes are actually harmless to planes. The only part of the flight that includes any danger is landing, due to wind and low visibility. But flying at cruising altitude or even through the storm is fairly harmless, as most winds are horizontal and nothing out of the ordinary for a plane. Keep in mind that the NOAA regularly flies commercial jets (such as a Gulfstream V) into hurricanes. Also keep in mind that never in the history of aviation has a plane been brought down by a cyclone. Thunderstorms, on the other hand, are much more dangerous. The main difference is that in a cyclone, air moves horizontally, while in a thunderstorm it moves vertically in bursts, which is much more difficult to navigate. 2) From what I've heard, this was not a commercial flight but a flight mainly aimed at evacuating non-rev airline employees. The main issue with doing this flight for regular passengers would be fear and discomfort due to turbulence. Airline employees on the other hand are used to flying, know that turbulence is harmless, and would rather just get home.

turbohedgehog 9y ago
1) No they're not harmless, updrafts and downdrafts exist https://www.wunderground.com/resources/education/hugo1.asp https://www.wunderground.com/resources/education/hugo1.asp
- SeoxyS 9y ago
  Ok, they're not entirely harmless (e.g. if you fly into an hailing embedded thunderstorm at low altitude). But overflying one at cruising altitude is 100% safe. E.g. the plane in this story flew through the eyewall of a hurricane at 1,500 feet. A commercial jet flies at a cruising altitude of up to 45,000 feet.
thecrazyone 9y ago
Thanks for the context. The other comments make it feel like this was extremely risky. Like "moving spacecrafts through closing doors". You give it more context
- zymhan 9y ago
  But they give ZERO source for their claims. It seems like you're looking for a particular point of view here.
  - thecrazyone 9y ago
    Yeah you might be right, I just took it at face value. Also, I'm pretty unaware of the specific realities in the interaction between planes and the weather. Thanks for pointing this out though
SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
NOAA does not fly their Gulfstream into hurricanes, it flies over them. They use WP-3s (strengthened P-3 Orions) to fly through the hurricane. The wind shear and turbulence can put quite a lot of stress on the airframe, it's nowhere near harmless. Crosswinds also make flying difficult, not to mention the vibration. A non-reinforced plane with a good pilot and 3-point seat belts could probably make it through, but the extra maintenance needed after would be enormous.
zymhan 9y ago
Do you have any source for your claims?
- hueving 9y ago
  The planes regularly face 300 MPH+ winds in normal flight because of their speed.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - tempestn 9y ago
    That's not evidence that an additional 180MPH would be harmless. For one thing, those 300MPH winds are normally only in one direction.
    - hueving 9y ago
      The plane moves relative to the wind it is in. A 180mph cross wind, head wind, or tail wind only affects its ground speed. I've been on flights from Asia to the US with a 150+ mph tailwind in the jet stream making the ground speed 700mph+. However, from the perspective of the air frame, it's still just traveling at a normal speed relative to the air it's in.
      - zymhan 9y ago
        So I'll take that as a "no" that you don't have any citations or professional/academic experience to talk about airframe stress dynamics in a hurricane.
        hueving 9y ago
        What citations would you like beyond basic reasoning skills? Planes don't fly relative to the ground, they fly relative to the air. Unless the wind is gusting from 0 to 160 (which is not how hurricanes work), there is nothing to be discussed here. The earth rotates at 1000 MPH and you don't see people wondering if cars can handle that. https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/34433/how-are-extreme-winds-aloft-handled-and-how-do-they-affect-flight https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/34433/how-are-e...
yardie 9y ago
As someone who has lived through some of the strongest hurricanes in recorded history you are wrong on multiple counts. Flying through the storm and the wall eye is dangerous and NOAA has lost planes to it. One of their hardened P3 had equipment and life raft ripped from their anchors [0]. There is definitely lightning and waterspouts during a hurricane. That is not reserved for thunderstorms. This was a flight to evacuate crew who are stationed in PR. Non-rev refers to crew who are commuting or on holiday. On a typical flight a plane may turn over in a few hours but the crew may remain for 24 hours and leave the following flight. This crew was down route and needed to head back to their operating base. [0] https://www.wunderground.com/resources/education/hugo8.asp https://www.wunderground.com/resources/education/hugo8.asp
- SeoxyS 9y ago
  Non-rev refers to any non-revenue passengers. You're conflating NRSA (non revenue space available) with non-rev generally. There's also NRPS (non revenue positive space) and "must ride" flyers in that category. This flight was picking up airline personnel, not revenue passengers. Your having lived through hurricanes on the ground is entirely irrelevant to a discussion about the safety of overflying the hurricane. At the flight altitudes of a commercial jet none of the effects you mention happen. You need to plan your path carefully for the descent, landing, and takeoff. But at cruising altitude, hurricane winds are not a major safety concern.
  - yardie 9y ago
    > flying at cruising altitude or even through the storm is fairly harmless, Yes, so harmless that no one does it. NOAA has to use an extremely reinforced, highly maintained fleet of P3 Orions. You've mentioned repeatedly in your parent posts that hurricanes are harmless to planes when commercial pilots in this forum say they wouldn't do it without excellent weather planning. > You need to plan your path carefully for the descent, landing, and takeoff. But at cruising altitude, hurricane winds are not a major safety concern. Planes have all sorts of cruising envelopes. Gulfstreams are in the 40k feet. Commercial jets cruise at 25-35K foot band. And commercial turboprops (commuter shuttles) are in the 10-20k foot band. While the first 2 won't feel the gale force winds they can experience the updrafts as turbulence. Commercial jets fly in the lower stratum of the stratosphere. There is still weather phenomena at the height, just much less than the troposphere. Finally, the captain will avoid a hurricane even if it doesn't really affect them. They may need to decend to a lower attitude for an engine flameout, for example. And why deal with the added complication of emergency landing during a hurricane.

by SeoxyS 9y ago

turbohedgehog 9y ago

1) No they're not harmless, updrafts and downdrafts exist https://www.wunderground.com/resources/education/hugo1.asp https://www.wunderground.com/resources/education/hugo1.asp

SeoxyS 9y ago
Ok, they're not entirely harmless (e.g. if you fly into an hailing embedded thunderstorm at low altitude). But overflying one at cruising altitude is 100% safe. E.g. the plane in this story flew through the eyewall of a hurricane at 1,500 feet. A commercial jet flies at a cruising altitude of up to 45,000 feet.

thecrazyone 9y ago

Thanks for the context. The other comments make it feel like this was extremely risky. Like "moving spacecrafts through closing doors". You give it more context

zymhan 9y ago
But they give ZERO source for their claims. It seems like you're looking for a particular point of view here.
- thecrazyone 9y ago
  Yeah you might be right, I just took it at face value. Also, I'm pretty unaware of the specific realities in the interaction between planes and the weather. Thanks for pointing this out though

SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago

NOAA does not fly their Gulfstream into hurricanes, it flies over them. They use WP-3s (strengthened P-3 Orions) to fly through the hurricane. The wind shear and turbulence can put quite a lot of stress on the airframe, it's nowhere near harmless. Crosswinds also make flying difficult, not to mention the vibration. A non-reinforced plane with a good pilot and 3-point seat belts could probably make it through, but the extra maintenance needed after would be enormous.

zymhan 9y ago

Do you have any source for your claims?

hueving 9y ago
The planes regularly face 300 MPH+ winds in normal flight because of their speed.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- tempestn 9y ago
  That's not evidence that an additional 180MPH would be harmless. For one thing, those 300MPH winds are normally only in one direction.
  - hueving 9y ago
    The plane moves relative to the wind it is in. A 180mph cross wind, head wind, or tail wind only affects its ground speed. I've been on flights from Asia to the US with a 150+ mph tailwind in the jet stream making the ground speed 700mph+. However, from the perspective of the air frame, it's still just traveling at a normal speed relative to the air it's in.
    - zymhan 9y ago
      So I'll take that as a "no" that you don't have any citations or professional/academic experience to talk about airframe stress dynamics in a hurricane.
      - hueving 9y ago
        What citations would you like beyond basic reasoning skills? Planes don't fly relative to the ground, they fly relative to the air. Unless the wind is gusting from 0 to 160 (which is not how hurricanes work), there is nothing to be discussed here. The earth rotates at 1000 MPH and you don't see people wondering if cars can handle that. https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/34433/how-are-extreme-winds-aloft-handled-and-how-do-they-affect-flight https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/34433/how-are-e...

yardie 9y ago

As someone who has lived through some of the strongest hurricanes in recorded history you are wrong on multiple counts. Flying through the storm and the wall eye is dangerous and NOAA has lost planes to it. One of their hardened P3 had equipment and life raft ripped from their anchors [0]. There is definitely lightning and waterspouts during a hurricane. That is not reserved for thunderstorms. This was a flight to evacuate crew who are stationed in PR. Non-rev refers to crew who are commuting or on holiday. On a typical flight a plane may turn over in a few hours but the crew may remain for 24 hours and leave the following flight. This crew was down route and needed to head back to their operating base. [0] https://www.wunderground.com/resources/education/hugo8.asp https://www.wunderground.com/resources/education/hugo8.asp

SeoxyS 9y ago
Non-rev refers to any non-revenue passengers. You're conflating NRSA (non revenue space available) with non-rev generally. There's also NRPS (non revenue positive space) and "must ride" flyers in that category. This flight was picking up airline personnel, not revenue passengers. Your having lived through hurricanes on the ground is entirely irrelevant to a discussion about the safety of overflying the hurricane. At the flight altitudes of a commercial jet none of the effects you mention happen. You need to plan your path carefully for the descent, landing, and takeoff. But at cruising altitude, hurricane winds are not a major safety concern.
- yardie 9y ago
  > flying at cruising altitude or even through the storm is fairly harmless, Yes, so harmless that no one does it. NOAA has to use an extremely reinforced, highly maintained fleet of P3 Orions. You've mentioned repeatedly in your parent posts that hurricanes are harmless to planes when commercial pilots in this forum say they wouldn't do it without excellent weather planning. > You need to plan your path carefully for the descent, landing, and takeoff. But at cruising altitude, hurricane winds are not a major safety concern. Planes have all sorts of cruising envelopes. Gulfstreams are in the 40k feet. Commercial jets cruise at 25-35K foot band. And commercial turboprops (commuter shuttles) are in the 10-20k foot band. While the first 2 won't feel the gale force winds they can experience the updrafts as turbulence. Commercial jets fly in the lower stratum of the stratosphere. There is still weather phenomena at the height, just much less than the troposphere. Finally, the captain will avoid a hurricane even if it doesn't really affect them. They may need to decend to a lower attitude for an engine flameout, for example. And why deal with the added complication of emergency landing during a hurricane.