6 ms·

US won't punish United Airlines over passenger-dragging incident

69 points by rainhacker 9y ago

alehul 9y ago
> "Airlines are allowed to oversell flights. When they do, they typically offer travel vouchers to encourage some people to give up their seats. They can also bump passengers - force them off the flight - but there are rules and necessary compensation." > "Dao, who lost teeth and suffered a broken nose and a concussion." I don't understand why we still allow overbooking when we regulate so much else in the flight industry. Also, even with allowed overbooking, why is it not the responsibility of the airline — who initially offered travel vouchers per policy — to continually offer more until the offer is accepted? Why are they allowed to determine 'x' amount as justifiable, then forcefully remove people when the passengers disagree? Paying generously should be a penalty of overbooking, at the least.
- subway 9y ago
  begin hand waving efficiency, lower fares, it's what the market wants end hand waving
- waqf 9y ago
  This was actually not an "overbooking" incident in the usual sense. United wanted the seats to move some of their own crew members (reference: http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/real-reason-man-dragged-off-united-flight-stop-happening/ http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/real-reas...).
  - aaronchall 9y ago
    This is my understanding as well. The "overbooking" terminology is specious PR spin.
- jdmichal 9y ago
  > Also, even with allowed overbooking, why is it not the responsibility of the airline — who initially offered travel vouchers per policy — to continually offer more until the offer is accepted? Why are they allowed to determine 'x' amount as justifiable, then forcefully remove people when the passengers disagree? Paying generously should be a penalty of overbooking, at the least. It's actually the federal government that has determined what is appropriate for forced bumping from a flight. * No compensation for less than one hour delay. * 200% reward in cash for one to two hours delay. * 400% reward in cash for two or more hours delay. * This is all in addition to retaining your original ticket, which the airlines must continue to honor with a new flight. Or you can request a refund, though I'm unsure how that interacts with the rewards. The vouchers are the airlines attempts to get volunteers for cheaper than the federally-mandated compensation. https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights#Overbooking https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights#Overbo...
  - conductr 9y ago
    I thought there was something about how none of this applies once you've taken your seat. If you're seated, you can refuse to give up your seat (unless you're being removed because of your own behavior).
    - rhino369 9y ago
      Some argued the contract of carriage only allows the airline to deny boarding, not to remove you after boarding. But that is a pretty narrow interpretation of the language. Plus, the airline can throw you off the plane for any reason at all, even if doing so is a breach of contract. There is no explicit law that says you can't be asked to leave a plane you already boarded.
      - phonon 9y ago
        Incorrect. United has a contract of carriage that explicitly enumerates the circumstances in which they can remove you from the aircraft.[1] Overbooking is not one of those reasons, and there is no "catch-all". [1] https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21 https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriag...
- nsxwolf 9y ago
  You'd have a lot more empty seats if you didn't allow overbooking. That's not good for anybody, or the environment.
- hueving 9y ago
  >I don't understand why we still allow overbooking when we regulate so much else in the flight industry. Because it's a good thing that results in a much more optimal outcome in the majority of cases. Fuller flights and travelers with flexible schedules get vouchers for other flights.
waqf 9y ago
It wasn't United staff who assaulted a customer, it was airport security staff. The article doesn't say the US won't punish O'Hare Airport over the incident.
- adrianratnapala 9y ago
  So will they?
  - burkaman 9y ago
    No. > We did not review the actions of the security officers of the Chicago Department of Aviation because it is not DOT's role to investigate police conduct. - http://www.flyersrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/May-12-2017-United-Close-out-Letter.pdf http://www.flyersrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/May-1...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- alex- 9y ago
  This to me seems like the major point. If we imagine we own a restaurant and a customer refused to leave, forcing us to call the police. Then the police show up, over react and shoot the customer. Surely the law enforcers doing the shooting are the responsible/guilty party?
  - r00fus 9y ago
    Given your hypothetical restaurant scenario, what would ultimately happen (regardless of responsibility) is that your revenue would topple as guests flee the venue and avoid it like the plague in the future. United is not a small concern, they have lawyers and PR folks that a small restaurant doesn't have access to.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
Domenic_S 9y ago
Thought exercise: Someone with lawful authority tells you to move. You don't move. What now?
- ribosometronome 9y ago
  Become a key figure in the Civil Rights movement?
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    Expect to get arrested first.
- tedunangst 9y ago
  Settle it with a real time auction on the blockchain.
  - gt_ 9y ago
    ICO date?
- Pica_soO 9y ago
  Dronestrike cause that's seat-terrorism?
- na85 9y ago
  How do I know that $random_armed_thug is lawfully authorized? Just because he says so? I paid for my seat on this flight.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - parent5446 9y ago
    If you hope to live, you should comply with $random_armed_thug, especially if they are not lawfully authorized. In fact, the less authorized, the more you should comply, unless you're saying you should start fighting an armed mugger in order to protect your wallet.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
marcoperaza 9y ago
Being denied your paid seat is a civil matter (and possibly allowed in the contract you signed when you bought it). The proper course of action is a request for compensation followed by a lawsuit if necessary. Or a complaint to relevant oversight bodies. Or making a stink in the court of public opinion. But trespassing on someone's property after receiving a request from them to leave is a crime. Disobeying a lawful order from a police officer is another crime. This guy got stupid lucky that the affair went viral. Otherwise he'd just be sitting in jail.
- lazyant 9y ago
  " Disobeying a lawful order from a police officer is another crime" it's not clear that the order was lawful or even that the guard in question was a police officer.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- burkaman 9y ago
  Excessive use of force is a crime too.
- deanCommie 9y ago
  Let me guess: You also think all those people getting shot/beaten/choked to death by police offers in the US were also all disobedient and/or resisting arrest.
- jamessb 9y ago
  > But trespassing on someone's property after receiving a request from them to leave is a crime. I am not a lawyer, but I don't think it is that simple. 25 CFR 11.411 - Criminal trespass requires the person comitting the offense to "know that he or she is not licensed or privileged to" enter or remain [1]. What if you believe that you are "licensed or privileged" to do remain where you are, because you are in posession of a valid ticket and the demand that you to give up your seat is not consistent with the terms attached to the ticket? It seems that if you believe that you have a license to remain then you are not commiting a crime, even if you are actually mistaken in this belief. Illinois state law also has a "Criminal trespass to vehicles" offense, but it applies only to entering, not remaining [2]. [1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/25/11.411 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/25/11.411 [2]: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/072000050K21-2.htm http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/072000050K21-...

69 points by rainhacker 9y ago

> "Airlines are allowed to oversell flights. When they do, they typically offer travel vouchers to encourage some people to give up their seats. They can also bump passengers - force them off the flight - but there are rules and necessary compensation." > "Dao, who lost teeth and suffered a broken nose and a concussion." I don't understand why we still allow overbooking when we regulate so much else in the flight industry. Also, even with allowed overbooking, why is it not the responsibility of the airline — who initially offered travel vouchers per policy — to continually offer more until the offer is accepted? Why are they allowed to determine 'x' amount as justifiable, then forcefully remove people when the passengers disagree? Paying generously should be a penalty of overbooking, at the least.

subway 9y ago
begin hand waving efficiency, lower fares, it's what the market wants end hand waving
waqf 9y ago
This was actually not an "overbooking" incident in the usual sense. United wanted the seats to move some of their own crew members (reference: http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/real-reason-man-dragged-off-united-flight-stop-happening/ http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/real-reas...).
- aaronchall 9y ago
  This is my understanding as well. The "overbooking" terminology is specious PR spin.
jdmichal 9y ago
> Also, even with allowed overbooking, why is it not the responsibility of the airline — who initially offered travel vouchers per policy — to continually offer more until the offer is accepted? Why are they allowed to determine 'x' amount as justifiable, then forcefully remove people when the passengers disagree? Paying generously should be a penalty of overbooking, at the least. It's actually the federal government that has determined what is appropriate for forced bumping from a flight. * No compensation for less than one hour delay. * 200% reward in cash for one to two hours delay. * 400% reward in cash for two or more hours delay. * This is all in addition to retaining your original ticket, which the airlines must continue to honor with a new flight. Or you can request a refund, though I'm unsure how that interacts with the rewards. The vouchers are the airlines attempts to get volunteers for cheaper than the federally-mandated compensation. https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights#Overbooking https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights#Overbo...
- conductr 9y ago
  I thought there was something about how none of this applies once you've taken your seat. If you're seated, you can refuse to give up your seat (unless you're being removed because of your own behavior).
  - rhino369 9y ago
    Some argued the contract of carriage only allows the airline to deny boarding, not to remove you after boarding. But that is a pretty narrow interpretation of the language. Plus, the airline can throw you off the plane for any reason at all, even if doing so is a breach of contract. There is no explicit law that says you can't be asked to leave a plane you already boarded.
    - phonon 9y ago
      Incorrect. United has a contract of carriage that explicitly enumerates the circumstances in which they can remove you from the aircraft.[1] Overbooking is not one of those reasons, and there is no "catch-all". [1] https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21 https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriag...
nsxwolf 9y ago
You'd have a lot more empty seats if you didn't allow overbooking. That's not good for anybody, or the environment.
hueving 9y ago
>I don't understand why we still allow overbooking when we regulate so much else in the flight industry. Because it's a good thing that results in a much more optimal outcome in the majority of cases. Fuller flights and travelers with flexible schedules get vouchers for other flights.

waqf 9y ago

It wasn't United staff who assaulted a customer, it was airport security staff. The article doesn't say the US won't punish O'Hare Airport over the incident.

adrianratnapala 9y ago
So will they?
- burkaman 9y ago
  No. > We did not review the actions of the security officers of the Chicago Department of Aviation because it is not DOT's role to investigate police conduct. - http://www.flyersrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/May-12-2017-United-Close-out-Letter.pdf http://www.flyersrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/May-1...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
alex- 9y ago
This to me seems like the major point. If we imagine we own a restaurant and a customer refused to leave, forcing us to call the police. Then the police show up, over react and shoot the customer. Surely the law enforcers doing the shooting are the responsible/guilty party?
- r00fus 9y ago
  Given your hypothetical restaurant scenario, what would ultimately happen (regardless of responsibility) is that your revenue would topple as guests flee the venue and avoid it like the plague in the future. United is not a small concern, they have lawyers and PR folks that a small restaurant doesn't have access to.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

Domenic_S 9y ago

Thought exercise: Someone with lawful authority tells you to move. You don't move. What now?

ribosometronome 9y ago
Become a key figure in the Civil Rights movement?
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  Expect to get arrested first.
tedunangst 9y ago
Settle it with a real time auction on the blockchain.
- gt_ 9y ago
  ICO date?
Pica_soO 9y ago
Dronestrike cause that's seat-terrorism?
na85 9y ago
How do I know that $random_armed_thug is lawfully authorized? Just because he says so? I paid for my seat on this flight.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- parent5446 9y ago
  If you hope to live, you should comply with $random_armed_thug, especially if they are not lawfully authorized. In fact, the less authorized, the more you should comply, unless you're saying you should start fighting an armed mugger in order to protect your wallet.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

marcoperaza 9y ago

Being denied your paid seat is a civil matter (and possibly allowed in the contract you signed when you bought it). The proper course of action is a request for compensation followed by a lawsuit if necessary. Or a complaint to relevant oversight bodies. Or making a stink in the court of public opinion. But trespassing on someone's property after receiving a request from them to leave is a crime. Disobeying a lawful order from a police officer is another crime. This guy got stupid lucky that the affair went viral. Otherwise he'd just be sitting in jail.

lazyant 9y ago
" Disobeying a lawful order from a police officer is another crime" it's not clear that the order was lawful or even that the guard in question was a police officer.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
burkaman 9y ago
Excessive use of force is a crime too.
deanCommie 9y ago
Let me guess: You also think all those people getting shot/beaten/choked to death by police offers in the US were also all disobedient and/or resisting arrest.
jamessb 9y ago
> But trespassing on someone's property after receiving a request from them to leave is a crime. I am not a lawyer, but I don't think it is that simple. 25 CFR 11.411 - Criminal trespass requires the person comitting the offense to "know that he or she is not licensed or privileged to" enter or remain [1]. What if you believe that you are "licensed or privileged" to do remain where you are, because you are in posession of a valid ticket and the demand that you to give up your seat is not consistent with the terms attached to the ticket? It seems that if you believe that you have a license to remain then you are not commiting a crime, even if you are actually mistaken in this belief. Illinois state law also has a "Criminal trespass to vehicles" offense, but it applies only to entering, not remaining [2]. [1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/25/11.411 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/25/11.411 [2]: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/072000050K21-2.htm http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/072000050K21-...