13 ms·

What I've never understood is why anyone does opiates to begin with, under any circumstances. Why even try it? I feel in the media everywhere it is said how ter

by tabeth 9y ago

What I've never understood is why anyone does opiates to begin with, under any circumstances. Why even try it? I feel in the media everywhere it is said how terrible it is.

dvdcxn 9y ago
Because it's fun. Does there need to be a more deep reason than that?
kibwen 9y ago
1. Someone is injured, they are prescribed a painkiller, the prescription runs out before the pain does, and they turn to cheaper street drugs. 2. Desperation and a sense of inescapable hopelessness can make a whole lot of people do things they never thought they'd consider doing.
- clu3l355 9y ago
  The article is saying that those unemployed have a higher rate of prescription though, not just illicit use >Krueger’s study linked county prescription rates to labor force data from the past 15 years
  - gozur88 9y ago
    That kind of makes sense, though. You probably can't keep up with healthy people if you're in pain bad enough to require opioids.
  - kibwen 9y ago
    Rather than commenting on the article, my goal is to help the grandparent empathize with how people keep falling into such a seemingly obvious trap. If we can't understand why people keep resorting to these behaviors--if we find their motivations entirely alien--then that precludes the ability to take the steps necessary to help these people, or prevent the same from befalling others (and possibly ourselves).
rainbowmverse 9y ago
When you have no hope, you look for ways to forget. Stuff like drugs and compulsive gambling follow a different kind of logic than people with something to lose apply to decisions. It's about dulling the pain of and distracting from abject poverty.
- cableshaft 9y ago
  For me that's what video games are for. Also video games are there for the good times too. Pretty much all video games, all the time, is what I'm saying. *Not quite true, I have several hobbies, including designing games
iak8god 9y ago
All too often with opioids, the answer is: because you are in pain, and your doctor prescribes you these drugs as the recommended treatment for your pain, and you followed the doctor's instructions and got hooked.
- Touche 9y ago
  How often is that though? Is there research on this? What % of new opioid addicts come from doctor prescribed pain medication? I'm genuinely curious.
  - ZoeZoeBee 9y ago
    >Of those who began their opioid abuse in the 1960s, more than 80% indicated that they initiated their abuse with heroin. In a near complete reversal, 75% of those who began their opioid abuse in the 2000s reported that their first regular opioid was a prescription drug. http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/1874575 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/1...
  - DanBC 9y ago
    The US prescribes far more opioids than any other country. http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/WDR2011/StatAnnex-consumption.pdf http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/WDR2011/Sta... In 2009 0.57% of the population between 15 and 64 took opiates (products of the poppy such as opium or heroin) and 5.9% of the same population took opioids, of which 5.6% were prescribed opioids. It's got much worse since then. Roughly 10% of people taking opioid medication will become addicted to them. (Mostly people taking it long term). https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2015/hq110415.shtml https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2015/hq110415.shtml > Since 2002, prescription drug deaths have outpaced those of cocaine and heroin combined. Abuse of controlled prescription drugs is higher than that of cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin, MDMA, and PCP combined.
    - Touche 9y ago
      Thanks, this is not the information I was asking for though. I was asking for the % of new opioid addicts began their addiction from medication prescribed to them.
tgb 9y ago
My father was given a prescription to an opioid for a scratch on his eye that didn't hurt at all. That was maybe a year ago while the problem with opioids had been obvious for years at that point. If it had been a little painful and he hadn't known better, he might have taken them just because the doctor prescribed them!
- jschwartzi 9y ago
  I've gotten them even when I've claimed not to feel any pain. When I fell off my bicycle I was given a prescription for Vicodin which I proceeded to fill and then never use.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  I am always amazed how quickly they give you hardcore painkillers. I have taken Vicodin once when I had my orbital bone smashed but otherwise I never fill the prescription. I don't know how prevalent this but I have seen stories in TV where people had kidney stones, got super strong painkillers and got addicted. The doctors notice this and cut their supply off cold turkey so the only way out for those people is heroin.
cirgue 9y ago
> What I've never understood is why anyone does drugs to begin with, under any circumstances. Poverty and the lack of opportunities to participate constructively in society do really fucked up things to human psychology. The current wave of opiate addiction frequently occurs as the result of prescribed pain medication. >Why even try it? I feel in the media everywhere it is said how terrible it is. The signals people pick up from their peer groups have a much larger impact on their behavior than media ever could.
- tabeth 9y ago
  > The signals people pick up from their peer groups have a much larger impact on their behavior than media ever could. This just begs the question. Why did the peers do it? Surely you see someone clearly messed up after doing drugs. Why go in follow them? There are other mindless things you could do like play video games to achieve a similar effect.
  - fnovd 9y ago
    >Surely you see someone clearly messed up after doing drugs. You may not start to see the negative impact of drug use until years later. By then it's too late.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    There's all sorts of (arguably destructive/harmful) cultural behaviors that you could ask the same question about. Apparently the answer is that they are human. I also wonder why you are so certain that video games are a substitute for drug use. Do you also not play video games?
    - tabeth 9y ago
      I'd love to play, but no time to spare. I mentioned video games because the OP mentioned how peer group effects are strong. If that's the case and is a proposed explanation for opiate use, why aren't these people playing video games instead. Of course they could just be doing them both.
- 9y ago
nnfy 9y ago
Drugs are a tool like any other. Or rather, each drug can be a tool in its own right. There are drugs for sleeping, drugs for focus, drugs for creativity, drugs for fun... You've literally been conditioned by the media (and probably the drug war) to be drug averse. "Drugs" should not be a dirty word. What the media shows you is the consequences irresponsible use. You dont need to go shoot up laced heroin in a back alley to understand. I am always amused when people correlate drug use with poverty or some other nonsense, implying that white collar professionals dont do drugs. Successful people are just less likely to be caught and/or open about use, I think. Oh, by the way, alcohol is a drug. Caffeine is a drug. The distinction between legal and illegal drugs is entirely arbitrary and in many cases unconstitutional.
mattnewton 9y ago
Because being sober feels more terrible in your situation? As for how they get started, I've been prescribed a large bottle of powerful painkillers for having my wisdom teeth removed. It's not hard to get exposure under doctor's orders in the US.
drewrv 9y ago
A lot of people, when they realize how badly they've been lied to about the dangers of marijuana, assume they've been lied to about the dangers of other drugs too.
garethsprice 9y ago
Even though you don't drink, imagine you get into a minor accident on the way home from work today. You seem alright but your knee hurts the next morning, so you go to the doctor just to get it checked out. There's a strong chance that in the event of a minor injury you'd be (over-)prescribed oxycontin, percocet or another opiate. Doctors have been handing them out like candy in the US thanks to heavy promotion by pharma companies & pressure to get patients processed as quickly as possible (easier to give pills than really get to know a patient). The doctor says it's safe and it's a medical prescription so it's fine, right. Your pain is gone and you're able to function normally. After a few weeks your supply runs out and the doctor refuses to renew your prescription despite your injury still causing you pain. The doctor provides no after-care or advice to avoid addiction, writes on your chart that you've exhibited "drug seeking behavior" and tells you to leave. Your buddy says he has a friend, who hooks you up with a few Oxies (at least you think they're Oxy, the writing is in Chinese), and you're back to feeling "normal" again. After a while you run out of money, but your friend can supply you heroin at a lower price. Congrats you're a junkie, despite being a tee-totaler just a few months before. Kinda condensed and I'm sure many people on HN will say "but that wouldn't be me". But it is the slope for many, many people in this country.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- syshum 9y ago
  WOW there is a lot of incorrect crap in your comment. Yes the US proscribes opiate based pain killers at a higher level then Socialized Medicine nations, mainly because American Patients do not accept the "live with the pain" treatment you get from Government run care where they refuse to provide pain killers unless you are screaming in pain, and even then they give you a Advil and tell you to "suck it up butter cup" Screw that. There are all kinds of people that cant not get the medication they have a legitimate medical need for because the these new crack downs on Opiate based pain killers, now these people are having to live with chronic pain because the doctor fear being sent to prison by the DEA, because the DEA knows more about medicine than a doctor does clearly In your Hypothetical from Prescription to Heroin you blame the doctor, I blame the DEA. The artificial limits and constraints the DEA is placing on medical professionals is interfering with patient care, and causing some patients to turn on street drugs instead of proper medication Contrary to what the DEA thinks, combating Drug abuse is not a police matter, it is a medical matter and should be left in the hand of medical doctors not the legal system
i_am_nomad 9y ago
For the same reason that torture doesn't work. People will do anything, and say anything, to escape pain when the pain is bad enough.
maxxxxx 9y ago
Some people are also more prone to addiction. I have no interest in drugs but I have unsuccessfully tried to stop eating chocolate. Couldn't do it. So if you are prone to addiction it's just really hard to stay away.
Clubber 9y ago
Probably because the people who got hooked, got hooked before the media storm. You know, back when Pharma said they weren't addictive because the slow release nature of the pills? Also, probably boredom. You have to understand what middle America looks like today. It used to be vibrant, now it's nothing but shells of ghost towns. This happened for a few reasons: 1. Walmartization killed all the independent shops. 2. Agribusiness made family farming untenable. 3. Out of country manufacturing.
- cr0sh 9y ago
  I'd say all three are part of a feedback loop death spiral. 1. Walmart - always lower prices (people want cheap crap) 2. So...cheap food means scale it up really big (agrabusiness) 3. And cheap non-food mean outsourced manufacturing (because people want big salaries to buy lots of cheap crap) ...and perhaps that's where it started, that last bit: People want big salaries (or paychecks, or pay - whatever), so they can buy more stuff (there's also the whole "easy credit" thing - but that's another discussion). They want that stuff cheaper. So businesses searched for ways to make it cheaper: Scale stuff up, have fewer employees (or pay them less), and outsource manufacturing. Classic death spiral. /I know I am over-simplifying things here...

by tabeth 9y ago

What I've never understood is why anyone does opiates to begin with, under any circumstances. Why even try it? I feel in the media everywhere it is said how terrible it is.

dvdcxn 9y ago

Because it's fun. Does there need to be a more deep reason than that?

kibwen 9y ago

1. Someone is injured, they are prescribed a painkiller, the prescription runs out before the pain does, and they turn to cheaper street drugs. 2. Desperation and a sense of inescapable hopelessness can make a whole lot of people do things they never thought they'd consider doing.

clu3l355 9y ago
The article is saying that those unemployed have a higher rate of prescription though, not just illicit use >Krueger’s study linked county prescription rates to labor force data from the past 15 years
- gozur88 9y ago
  That kind of makes sense, though. You probably can't keep up with healthy people if you're in pain bad enough to require opioids.
- kibwen 9y ago
  Rather than commenting on the article, my goal is to help the grandparent empathize with how people keep falling into such a seemingly obvious trap. If we can't understand why people keep resorting to these behaviors--if we find their motivations entirely alien--then that precludes the ability to take the steps necessary to help these people, or prevent the same from befalling others (and possibly ourselves).

rainbowmverse 9y ago

When you have no hope, you look for ways to forget. Stuff like drugs and compulsive gambling follow a different kind of logic than people with something to lose apply to decisions. It's about dulling the pain of and distracting from abject poverty.

cableshaft 9y ago
For me that's what video games are for. Also video games are there for the good times too. Pretty much all video games, all the time, is what I'm saying. *Not quite true, I have several hobbies, including designing games

iak8god 9y ago

All too often with opioids, the answer is: because you are in pain, and your doctor prescribes you these drugs as the recommended treatment for your pain, and you followed the doctor's instructions and got hooked.

Touche 9y ago
How often is that though? Is there research on this? What % of new opioid addicts come from doctor prescribed pain medication? I'm genuinely curious.
- ZoeZoeBee 9y ago
  >Of those who began their opioid abuse in the 1960s, more than 80% indicated that they initiated their abuse with heroin. In a near complete reversal, 75% of those who began their opioid abuse in the 2000s reported that their first regular opioid was a prescription drug. http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/1874575 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/1...
- DanBC 9y ago
  The US prescribes far more opioids than any other country. http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/WDR2011/StatAnnex-consumption.pdf http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/WDR2011/Sta... In 2009 0.57% of the population between 15 and 64 took opiates (products of the poppy such as opium or heroin) and 5.9% of the same population took opioids, of which 5.6% were prescribed opioids. It's got much worse since then. Roughly 10% of people taking opioid medication will become addicted to them. (Mostly people taking it long term). https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2015/hq110415.shtml https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2015/hq110415.shtml > Since 2002, prescription drug deaths have outpaced those of cocaine and heroin combined. Abuse of controlled prescription drugs is higher than that of cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin, MDMA, and PCP combined.
  - Touche 9y ago
    Thanks, this is not the information I was asking for though. I was asking for the % of new opioid addicts began their addiction from medication prescribed to them.

tgb 9y ago

My father was given a prescription to an opioid for a scratch on his eye that didn't hurt at all. That was maybe a year ago while the problem with opioids had been obvious for years at that point. If it had been a little painful and he hadn't known better, he might have taken them just because the doctor prescribed them!

jschwartzi 9y ago
I've gotten them even when I've claimed not to feel any pain. When I fell off my bicycle I was given a prescription for Vicodin which I proceeded to fill and then never use.
maxxxxx 9y ago
I am always amazed how quickly they give you hardcore painkillers. I have taken Vicodin once when I had my orbital bone smashed but otherwise I never fill the prescription. I don't know how prevalent this but I have seen stories in TV where people had kidney stones, got super strong painkillers and got addicted. The doctors notice this and cut their supply off cold turkey so the only way out for those people is heroin.

cirgue 9y ago

> What I've never understood is why anyone does drugs to begin with, under any circumstances. Poverty and the lack of opportunities to participate constructively in society do really fucked up things to human psychology. The current wave of opiate addiction frequently occurs as the result of prescribed pain medication. >Why even try it? I feel in the media everywhere it is said how terrible it is. The signals people pick up from their peer groups have a much larger impact on their behavior than media ever could.

tabeth 9y ago
> The signals people pick up from their peer groups have a much larger impact on their behavior than media ever could. This just begs the question. Why did the peers do it? Surely you see someone clearly messed up after doing drugs. Why go in follow them? There are other mindless things you could do like play video games to achieve a similar effect.
- fnovd 9y ago
  >Surely you see someone clearly messed up after doing drugs. You may not start to see the negative impact of drug use until years later. By then it's too late.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  There's all sorts of (arguably destructive/harmful) cultural behaviors that you could ask the same question about. Apparently the answer is that they are human. I also wonder why you are so certain that video games are a substitute for drug use. Do you also not play video games?
  - tabeth 9y ago
    I'd love to play, but no time to spare. I mentioned video games because the OP mentioned how peer group effects are strong. If that's the case and is a proposed explanation for opiate use, why aren't these people playing video games instead. Of course they could just be doing them both.
9y ago

nnfy 9y ago

Drugs are a tool like any other. Or rather, each drug can be a tool in its own right. There are drugs for sleeping, drugs for focus, drugs for creativity, drugs for fun... You've literally been conditioned by the media (and probably the drug war) to be drug averse. "Drugs" should not be a dirty word. What the media shows you is the consequences irresponsible use. You dont need to go shoot up laced heroin in a back alley to understand. I am always amused when people correlate drug use with poverty or some other nonsense, implying that white collar professionals dont do drugs. Successful people are just less likely to be caught and/or open about use, I think. Oh, by the way, alcohol is a drug. Caffeine is a drug. The distinction between legal and illegal drugs is entirely arbitrary and in many cases unconstitutional.

mattnewton 9y ago

Because being sober feels more terrible in your situation? As for how they get started, I've been prescribed a large bottle of powerful painkillers for having my wisdom teeth removed. It's not hard to get exposure under doctor's orders in the US.

drewrv 9y ago

A lot of people, when they realize how badly they've been lied to about the dangers of marijuana, assume they've been lied to about the dangers of other drugs too.

garethsprice 9y ago

Even though you don't drink, imagine you get into a minor accident on the way home from work today. You seem alright but your knee hurts the next morning, so you go to the doctor just to get it checked out. There's a strong chance that in the event of a minor injury you'd be (over-)prescribed oxycontin, percocet or another opiate. Doctors have been handing them out like candy in the US thanks to heavy promotion by pharma companies & pressure to get patients processed as quickly as possible (easier to give pills than really get to know a patient). The doctor says it's safe and it's a medical prescription so it's fine, right. Your pain is gone and you're able to function normally. After a few weeks your supply runs out and the doctor refuses to renew your prescription despite your injury still causing you pain. The doctor provides no after-care or advice to avoid addiction, writes on your chart that you've exhibited "drug seeking behavior" and tells you to leave. Your buddy says he has a friend, who hooks you up with a few Oxies (at least you think they're Oxy, the writing is in Chinese), and you're back to feeling "normal" again. After a while you run out of money, but your friend can supply you heroin at a lower price. Congrats you're a junkie, despite being a tee-totaler just a few months before. Kinda condensed and I'm sure many people on HN will say "but that wouldn't be me". But it is the slope for many, many people in this country.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
syshum 9y ago
WOW there is a lot of incorrect crap in your comment. Yes the US proscribes opiate based pain killers at a higher level then Socialized Medicine nations, mainly because American Patients do not accept the "live with the pain" treatment you get from Government run care where they refuse to provide pain killers unless you are screaming in pain, and even then they give you a Advil and tell you to "suck it up butter cup" Screw that. There are all kinds of people that cant not get the medication they have a legitimate medical need for because the these new crack downs on Opiate based pain killers, now these people are having to live with chronic pain because the doctor fear being sent to prison by the DEA, because the DEA knows more about medicine than a doctor does clearly In your Hypothetical from Prescription to Heroin you blame the doctor, I blame the DEA. The artificial limits and constraints the DEA is placing on medical professionals is interfering with patient care, and causing some patients to turn on street drugs instead of proper medication Contrary to what the DEA thinks, combating Drug abuse is not a police matter, it is a medical matter and should be left in the hand of medical doctors not the legal system

i_am_nomad 9y ago

For the same reason that torture doesn't work. People will do anything, and say anything, to escape pain when the pain is bad enough.

maxxxxx 9y ago

Some people are also more prone to addiction. I have no interest in drugs but I have unsuccessfully tried to stop eating chocolate. Couldn't do it. So if you are prone to addiction it's just really hard to stay away.

Clubber 9y ago

Probably because the people who got hooked, got hooked before the media storm. You know, back when Pharma said they weren't addictive because the slow release nature of the pills? Also, probably boredom. You have to understand what middle America looks like today. It used to be vibrant, now it's nothing but shells of ghost towns. This happened for a few reasons: 1. Walmartization killed all the independent shops. 2. Agribusiness made family farming untenable. 3. Out of country manufacturing.

cr0sh 9y ago
I'd say all three are part of a feedback loop death spiral. 1. Walmart - always lower prices (people want cheap crap) 2. So...cheap food means scale it up really big (agrabusiness) 3. And cheap non-food mean outsourced manufacturing (because people want big salaries to buy lots of cheap crap) ...and perhaps that's where it started, that last bit: People want big salaries (or paychecks, or pay - whatever), so they can buy more stuff (there's also the whole "easy credit" thing - but that's another discussion). They want that stuff cheaper. So businesses searched for ways to make it cheaper: Scale stuff up, have fewer employees (or pay them less), and outsource manufacturing. Classic death spiral. /I know I am over-simplifying things here...