4 ms·

Why not put HQ2 in Vancouver? Okay, yes, house prices are unrealistic, but hear me out: 1. Not in the US (helpful for any non-American employees who can't get

Why not put HQ2 in Vancouver? Okay, yes, house prices are unrealistic, but hear me out: 1. Not in the US (helpful for any non-American employees who can't get a visa or don't want to live in the current political climate in the US) 2. Relatively easy for Americans to work in Canada 3. Close proximity to Seattle 4. Canadian salaries are typically lower than America, so this could be a huge boon to Canadians working in tech that they're finally paid similar to US counterparts and/or Amazon can save a bundle on salary costs by paying the Canadian market rate...

martin_drapeau 9y ago
Salaries are lower in Canada indeed. Plus, their are substantial credits both at the federal and provincial levels to recuperate developer salary costs (30%+). Ubisoft and other studios have their R&D in Montreal just for this reason. There is a big talent pool in and around Montreal. Would be an ideal location.
- kogepathic 9y ago
  > There is a big talent pool in and around Montreal. Would be an ideal location. True, Montreal is also a great potential city for HQ2. They already have quite a tech presence there (OVH data centre, game studios, some media production)
- JustAnotherPat 9y ago
  Taxes are too high in Quebec. Also, not sure people in Montreal want to be dominated by Amazon and have it turn into some new Amazon-centric tech hub. It is doing relatively well without a megacorp there.
  - eniotna 9y ago
    I believe it's the opposite, taxes for companies are lower in Quebec than in the US (did not factor in R&D credit, etc). Individual taxes are higher in Quebec.
malmsteen 9y ago
pretty sure they want to be further from seatlle on purpose (east coast ? south ?)
jonjenk 9y ago
Why not? Because the single greatest threat to Amazon's business continuity is a major quake in Seattle. Vancouver sits on some of the same tectonic plates. It's likely that this move is, in part, an attempt to address the business continuity risk.
- ihsw2 9y ago
  Ottawa is an excellent candidate for this as it sits squarely on the Canadian Shield. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Shield https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Shield Not only that but the public transit is undergoing rapid modernization (ie: light rail) and the software industry is spiking.
  - uiri 9y ago
    All the top students from uOttawa and Carleton end up going to Silicon Valley or Seattle anyways. A few go to Toronto. What's left in Ottawa are largely mediocre government employees. On top of that, you're going to have a tough time convincing people to move somewhere with -40 degree winters.
    - 52-6F-62 9y ago
      >you're going to have a tough time convincing people to move somewhere with -40 degree winters. But there's all that sweet, sweet Rideau Canal beer and poutine. Aside from that, Ottawa is home to a [small, but] thriving startup and tech community. Prices as compared to SV or Vancouver or Toronto would be lower, while quality of life remains high. Even if it's less exciting. I don't think it's a terrible suggestion. (And I'm saying that from Toronto!)
  - kogepathic 9y ago
    Ottawa doesn't have more than 1 million people though. [0] Ottawa city limits are already huge, so I can't imagine what else qualifies as the "metro area" Kingston perhaps? Or they're counting Gatineau as a separate city but within the metro area? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa
no_one_ever 9y ago
Canadian market rate and Vancouver housing prices already kind of turn me off from this
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  Amazon's page says they'll bring high-paying jobs though, so I don't think that would be a major issue.
  - Tiktaalik 9y ago
    Housing in Vancouver is so incredibly expensive that even a great low six figure salary of the sort an Amazon software engineer is likely to have is not really enough to purchase housing. The median price for a condo in the City of Vancouver is approaching $1 million, and $3 million for a detached home. http://www.vancourier.com/news/vancouver-s-median-condo-price-nears-1-million-detached-homes-3-million-1.22414089 http://www.vancourier.com/news/vancouver-s-median-condo-pric...
DrGrX 9y ago
I agree with these points, but I think the property costs are going to be a non-starter. I know housing is expensive in Vancouver so I'm assuming, possibly incorrectly, that office space will be at a premium as well. This puts Vancouver at a disadvantage since another metro can offer an insane tax deal plus cheaper property.
mudflaps 9y ago
Amazon has had a development site in Vancouver for more than 6 years. It's one of the larger North American outposts today. The area probably doesn't have enough locally created talent to be the second HQ, and cost of living isn't favorable if you need to relocate large numbers of people. Doubling down on the PNW doesn't do much for cultural or geographic diversity, imo.
omosubi 9y ago
companies in Vancouver compete for a lot of the same talent that companies in Seattle do. Amazon already has a large office in Van and the local universities don't generate enough software eng. talent to justify having it so close.
jherdman 9y ago
I'd imagine a city like Windsor might be better suited. There's tonnes of space for the HQ, it's close to the border, it has relatively easy access to Detroit Metro Airport, and has its own local airport for those flying within Ontario. I'm sure every medium sized Canadian city will be clamouring for this.
- wcunning 9y ago
  Amazon already has a fairly sizeable office in Downtown Detroit, and a huge number of Canadians from Windsor working there. Would it make more sense to expand that?
wonderwonder 9y ago
They need it to be in America due to the current political climate here. Many politicians are looking at Amazon with an unfriendly eye. Investing Billions in the US and hiring tens of thousands helps remove that pressure. Doing all of that in a foreign country would be political suicide for them right now.
nkassis 9y ago
If we are looking at Canada, Montreal could be attractive. Lower labor cost, large amount of schools churning out tech talent (including strong AI programs). Eastern timezone. Still reasonable housing prices. Obviously there are down sides, perpetual construction, governmental corruption, and Airport kinda sucks but it's still not too hard to access. Visa situation for US workers isn't too bad under NAFTA most of their (US and Canadian citizen) employees could transit between the two at will with a simple VISA They would probably get the incentives they want if they did move there too from the provincial and federal level.
throwaway30yo 9y ago
How about Calgary? 1. Huge amounts of Vacant office space. 2. > 1 Million People 3. No earthquakes 4. Educated population 5. Commuter rail (green line will make this even better) 6. Low corporate tax rates 7. Way lower cost of living then Toronto/Vancouver 8. Cheaper salaries 9. A very willing government 10. Close to tons of outdoor activities (similar to Denver here) Calgary has major towers being built with < 50% vacancy, amazon here would be supported by almost everyone.
pkaler 9y ago
And there are already more than 1000 Amazon employees in Vancouver. A couple warehouses that have easy access to China/Pacific shipping. And the False Creek Flats are going through planned urbanization at the moment: http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/false-creek-flats-plan-2017-05-17.pdf http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/false-creek-flats-plan-2017-05...

martin_drapeau 9y ago

Salaries are lower in Canada indeed. Plus, their are substantial credits both at the federal and provincial levels to recuperate developer salary costs (30%+). Ubisoft and other studios have their R&D in Montreal just for this reason. There is a big talent pool in and around Montreal. Would be an ideal location.

kogepathic 9y ago
> There is a big talent pool in and around Montreal. Would be an ideal location. True, Montreal is also a great potential city for HQ2. They already have quite a tech presence there (OVH data centre, game studios, some media production)
JustAnotherPat 9y ago
Taxes are too high in Quebec. Also, not sure people in Montreal want to be dominated by Amazon and have it turn into some new Amazon-centric tech hub. It is doing relatively well without a megacorp there.
- eniotna 9y ago
  I believe it's the opposite, taxes for companies are lower in Quebec than in the US (did not factor in R&D credit, etc). Individual taxes are higher in Quebec.

malmsteen 9y ago

pretty sure they want to be further from seatlle on purpose (east coast ? south ?)

jonjenk 9y ago

Why not? Because the single greatest threat to Amazon's business continuity is a major quake in Seattle. Vancouver sits on some of the same tectonic plates. It's likely that this move is, in part, an attempt to address the business continuity risk.

ihsw2 9y ago
Ottawa is an excellent candidate for this as it sits squarely on the Canadian Shield. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Shield https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Shield Not only that but the public transit is undergoing rapid modernization (ie: light rail) and the software industry is spiking.
- uiri 9y ago
  All the top students from uOttawa and Carleton end up going to Silicon Valley or Seattle anyways. A few go to Toronto. What's left in Ottawa are largely mediocre government employees. On top of that, you're going to have a tough time convincing people to move somewhere with -40 degree winters.
  - 52-6F-62 9y ago
    >you're going to have a tough time convincing people to move somewhere with -40 degree winters. But there's all that sweet, sweet Rideau Canal beer and poutine. Aside from that, Ottawa is home to a [small, but] thriving startup and tech community. Prices as compared to SV or Vancouver or Toronto would be lower, while quality of life remains high. Even if it's less exciting. I don't think it's a terrible suggestion. (And I'm saying that from Toronto!)
- kogepathic 9y ago
  Ottawa doesn't have more than 1 million people though. [0] Ottawa city limits are already huge, so I can't imagine what else qualifies as the "metro area" Kingston perhaps? Or they're counting Gatineau as a separate city but within the metro area? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa

no_one_ever 9y ago

Canadian market rate and Vancouver housing prices already kind of turn me off from this

Cthulhu_ 9y ago
Amazon's page says they'll bring high-paying jobs though, so I don't think that would be a major issue.
- Tiktaalik 9y ago
  Housing in Vancouver is so incredibly expensive that even a great low six figure salary of the sort an Amazon software engineer is likely to have is not really enough to purchase housing. The median price for a condo in the City of Vancouver is approaching $1 million, and $3 million for a detached home. http://www.vancourier.com/news/vancouver-s-median-condo-price-nears-1-million-detached-homes-3-million-1.22414089 http://www.vancourier.com/news/vancouver-s-median-condo-pric...

DrGrX 9y ago

I agree with these points, but I think the property costs are going to be a non-starter. I know housing is expensive in Vancouver so I'm assuming, possibly incorrectly, that office space will be at a premium as well. This puts Vancouver at a disadvantage since another metro can offer an insane tax deal plus cheaper property.

mudflaps 9y ago

Amazon has had a development site in Vancouver for more than 6 years. It's one of the larger North American outposts today. The area probably doesn't have enough locally created talent to be the second HQ, and cost of living isn't favorable if you need to relocate large numbers of people. Doubling down on the PNW doesn't do much for cultural or geographic diversity, imo.

omosubi 9y ago

companies in Vancouver compete for a lot of the same talent that companies in Seattle do. Amazon already has a large office in Van and the local universities don't generate enough software eng. talent to justify having it so close.

jherdman 9y ago

I'd imagine a city like Windsor might be better suited. There's tonnes of space for the HQ, it's close to the border, it has relatively easy access to Detroit Metro Airport, and has its own local airport for those flying within Ontario. I'm sure every medium sized Canadian city will be clamouring for this.

wcunning 9y ago
Amazon already has a fairly sizeable office in Downtown Detroit, and a huge number of Canadians from Windsor working there. Would it make more sense to expand that?

wonderwonder 9y ago

They need it to be in America due to the current political climate here. Many politicians are looking at Amazon with an unfriendly eye. Investing Billions in the US and hiring tens of thousands helps remove that pressure. Doing all of that in a foreign country would be political suicide for them right now.

nkassis 9y ago

If we are looking at Canada, Montreal could be attractive. Lower labor cost, large amount of schools churning out tech talent (including strong AI programs). Eastern timezone. Still reasonable housing prices. Obviously there are down sides, perpetual construction, governmental corruption, and Airport kinda sucks but it's still not too hard to access. Visa situation for US workers isn't too bad under NAFTA most of their (US and Canadian citizen) employees could transit between the two at will with a simple VISA They would probably get the incentives they want if they did move there too from the provincial and federal level.

throwaway30yo 9y ago

How about Calgary? 1. Huge amounts of Vacant office space. 2. > 1 Million People 3. No earthquakes 4. Educated population 5. Commuter rail (green line will make this even better) 6. Low corporate tax rates 7. Way lower cost of living then Toronto/Vancouver 8. Cheaper salaries 9. A very willing government 10. Close to tons of outdoor activities (similar to Denver here) Calgary has major towers being built with < 50% vacancy, amazon here would be supported by almost everyone.

pkaler 9y ago

And there are already more than 1000 Amazon employees in Vancouver. A couple warehouses that have easy access to China/Pacific shipping. And the False Creek Flats are going through planned urbanization at the moment: http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/false-creek-flats-plan-2017-05-17.pdf http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/false-creek-flats-plan-2017-05...