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Of note in general regarding elections in Germany is that there's constitutional right to be able to follow the process of elections including the vote count. T

by ygra 9y ago

Of note in general regarding elections in Germany is that there's constitutional right to be able to follow the process of elections including the vote count. That's also the reason behind electronic voting machines being banned because, while counting votes by hand is cumbersome, it's a process that everyone can follow and understand. You can actually watch the counting process if you want to. And as the article states, at least one state apparently don't trust this software enough that they mandate verification that the correct results have been transmitted and obtained via an independent channel. The only benefit all this has is that a preliminary result of an election can be obtained a few hours earlier. Whether that's worth having an election that can be manipulated without anyone noticing is anyone's guess, but I believe the BVerfG may have a say in that, as it did for voting machines.

SkyMarshal 9y ago
Out of curiosity, to what extent are German political parties involved in the voting process? In the US, it's usually state governments that run it and they can be susceptible to whichever political party controls the government then. Sounds like Germany may handle this issue better?
- Xylakant 9y ago
  There's basically an independent part of the administration that oversees elections. Voting points are manned by volunteers and counting happens by volunteers as well. Every citizen is allowed to witness the counting and visit the voting point. Since it's all paper ballots, this doesn't require any knowledge beyond mostly simple math (local elections can have some more elaborate rules on what constitutes a valid vote, but federal elections are fairly simple in that regard.) The tally is announced locally before transferred to the regional and higher offices. I'd be surprised if someone manages to slip in an invalid count and not be detected: Most crucial voting points are monitored by people from polling institutes that want results as early as possible. Significant differences would likely raise flags. (I did that a few times for infratest, it's actually fairly ok paid for sitting there and watching). n.B.: The software seems to be an absolute clusterfuck and it's probably possible to sow discord and confusion, I just don't believe that you can actually change the election result with these issues - just make people question it, which is bad enough.
  - _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
    It's kind of "volunteers", as the adminstration sends you a letter and asks you. It's sometimes not easy to get out of that.
    - k__ 9y ago
      My uncle did it for years and he was a member of the SPD, so I guess parties are involved quite a bit.
      - majewsky 9y ago
        Yeah, but there are also members of all the other parties there. Also, when I volunteered, I got the feeling that most (if not all) election assistants take their duty seriously and emphasize their neutrality while performing it.
        k__ 9y ago
        Yes, he was very neutral and forbade every political activity in the election rooms. But what can I say, politically interested people are more likely to be party members, so it's more likely that they work there.
        _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
        I had the same impression.
        Xylakant 9y ago
        Whenever I've been observer I never had the slightest feeling that any of the volunteers would place party allegiance over diligent work. But that's exactly why we're all invited to go and observe.
    - Xylakant 9y ago
      This happens if there are insufficient "real" volunteers. Before every election, there are calls for people to staff the voting places and do the vote counting. Only if that doesn't bring enough people, you'll get drafted. (same as with the volunteer fire brigade by the way. there, too, you can be volunteered)
- _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
  Citizens are asked to manage the voting process and counting. I've helped in this role for a long time, but considered my duty done as it sometimes was a lot of work deep into the nights especially if several elections and referendums where conducted at the same time. Everyone can attend the voting process and counting process. Schools etc. for places to vote, voting booths, paper etc. is supplied by the administration as is the selection of citizens who manage the voting and counting process. The Federal Returning Officer is responsible for organizing elections (for federal elections, similar posts exists for state elections and I assume local ones). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Returning_Officer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Returning_Officer
  - majewsky 9y ago
    > Everyone can attend the voting process and counting process. As a sidenote, this is not just a theoretical right. People are exercising it. I volunteered as an election assistant in one of the previous elections in Germany. We were a team of five assigned to a constituency of about 1000 voters, and when we counted the votes, three citizens were present to observe the counting. As I submitted the results (via phone) to the next-higher level, I also noted the numbers down for myself and checked, later in the evening, that the numbers on the website of the returning officer matched those that I recorded. (They did.)
    - _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
      "As a sidenote, this is not just a theoretical right. People are exercising it." Same experience here.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - smueller1234 9y ago
      Thank you for volunteering and verifying!
  - wiz21c 9y ago
- Amezarak 9y ago
  This is a misleading description of how US elections work. On the ground, the election is run by local volunteers. You can sign up to check peoples' voter registrations and count votes yourself. The state 'runs' the election in that the state and the state's Secretary of State establish the rules and certify the results.
RealityNow 9y ago
Why can't voting just be done on the blockchain with a public ledger? Any vote could be verified. I'd feel more secure with this than paper ballots, which are very insecure and have been tampered with so many times.
- matt4077 9y ago
  What? Pen-and-paper, with the ability to observe, is a provably secure system, and its security is easily observable by anybody. That Blockchains are voodoo, and I'd really think the ongoing disaster of Ethereum should have cooled some of these absurd claims of perfect security.
  - RealityNow 9y ago
    Pen-and-paper is not observable by anybody. It's a complete black box, and there's no way for me to verify that my vote went through. With a blockchain on the other hand, anybody could verify that their vote went through (just like anybody can verify any Bitcoin/Ethereum transaction). I'd feel much more confident in this than some black box pen and paper because there's zero way to verify anything under a pen-and-paper system. What disaster of Ethereum? Ethereum is doing pretty well.
    - germanier 9y ago
      With a blockchain, you could verify that your vote went through but so can your neighbour. Even if you find some way around that: If you can see how you see how your vote was counted, you are able to prove to someone else how you voted making vote selling possible. These are two big reasons not to use such a system. Personally, I know for certain that my vote in the last election went through because I have seen the complete process myself and have verified that the published vote counts match the once counted in the polling station. There is no black box left.
      - RealityNow 9y ago
        You would need a hash to verify the transaction, and hashes wouldn't be publicly tied to one's identity. Thus if I claim that a hash represents me, then there'd be no way for anybody else to verify that. It's a legitimate concern, but not a hurdle that can't be overcome. So you worked at a polling station that had it's shit together? Great, but that doesn't inspire me much confidence. Though really the main reason I want electronic voting is for convenience (it really is a hassle, and election days aren't national holidays), increased participation, and so that we could move more towards direct democracy and liquid democracy.

by ygra 9y ago

SkyMarshal 9y ago

Out of curiosity, to what extent are German political parties involved in the voting process? In the US, it's usually state governments that run it and they can be susceptible to whichever political party controls the government then. Sounds like Germany may handle this issue better?

Xylakant 9y ago
There's basically an independent part of the administration that oversees elections. Voting points are manned by volunteers and counting happens by volunteers as well. Every citizen is allowed to witness the counting and visit the voting point. Since it's all paper ballots, this doesn't require any knowledge beyond mostly simple math (local elections can have some more elaborate rules on what constitutes a valid vote, but federal elections are fairly simple in that regard.) The tally is announced locally before transferred to the regional and higher offices. I'd be surprised if someone manages to slip in an invalid count and not be detected: Most crucial voting points are monitored by people from polling institutes that want results as early as possible. Significant differences would likely raise flags. (I did that a few times for infratest, it's actually fairly ok paid for sitting there and watching). n.B.: The software seems to be an absolute clusterfuck and it's probably possible to sow discord and confusion, I just don't believe that you can actually change the election result with these issues - just make people question it, which is bad enough.
- _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
  It's kind of "volunteers", as the adminstration sends you a letter and asks you. It's sometimes not easy to get out of that.
  - k__ 9y ago
    My uncle did it for years and he was a member of the SPD, so I guess parties are involved quite a bit.
    - majewsky 9y ago
      Yeah, but there are also members of all the other parties there. Also, when I volunteered, I got the feeling that most (if not all) election assistants take their duty seriously and emphasize their neutrality while performing it.
      - k__ 9y ago
        Yes, he was very neutral and forbade every political activity in the election rooms. But what can I say, politically interested people are more likely to be party members, so it's more likely that they work there.
      - _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
        I had the same impression.
      - Xylakant 9y ago
        Whenever I've been observer I never had the slightest feeling that any of the volunteers would place party allegiance over diligent work. But that's exactly why we're all invited to go and observe.
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    This happens if there are insufficient "real" volunteers. Before every election, there are calls for people to staff the voting places and do the vote counting. Only if that doesn't bring enough people, you'll get drafted. (same as with the volunteer fire brigade by the way. there, too, you can be volunteered)
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
Citizens are asked to manage the voting process and counting. I've helped in this role for a long time, but considered my duty done as it sometimes was a lot of work deep into the nights especially if several elections and referendums where conducted at the same time. Everyone can attend the voting process and counting process. Schools etc. for places to vote, voting booths, paper etc. is supplied by the administration as is the selection of citizens who manage the voting and counting process. The Federal Returning Officer is responsible for organizing elections (for federal elections, similar posts exists for state elections and I assume local ones). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Returning_Officer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Returning_Officer
- majewsky 9y ago
  > Everyone can attend the voting process and counting process. As a sidenote, this is not just a theoretical right. People are exercising it. I volunteered as an election assistant in one of the previous elections in Germany. We were a team of five assigned to a constituency of about 1000 voters, and when we counted the votes, three citizens were present to observe the counting. As I submitted the results (via phone) to the next-higher level, I also noted the numbers down for myself and checked, later in the evening, that the numbers on the website of the returning officer matched those that I recorded. (They did.)
  - _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
    "As a sidenote, this is not just a theoretical right. People are exercising it." Same experience here.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - smueller1234 9y ago
    Thank you for volunteering and verifying!
- wiz21c 9y ago
Amezarak 9y ago
This is a misleading description of how US elections work. On the ground, the election is run by local volunteers. You can sign up to check peoples' voter registrations and count votes yourself. The state 'runs' the election in that the state and the state's Secretary of State establish the rules and certify the results.

RealityNow 9y ago

Why can't voting just be done on the blockchain with a public ledger? Any vote could be verified. I'd feel more secure with this than paper ballots, which are very insecure and have been tampered with so many times.

matt4077 9y ago
What? Pen-and-paper, with the ability to observe, is a provably secure system, and its security is easily observable by anybody. That Blockchains are voodoo, and I'd really think the ongoing disaster of Ethereum should have cooled some of these absurd claims of perfect security.
- RealityNow 9y ago
  Pen-and-paper is not observable by anybody. It's a complete black box, and there's no way for me to verify that my vote went through. With a blockchain on the other hand, anybody could verify that their vote went through (just like anybody can verify any Bitcoin/Ethereum transaction). I'd feel much more confident in this than some black box pen and paper because there's zero way to verify anything under a pen-and-paper system. What disaster of Ethereum? Ethereum is doing pretty well.
  - germanier 9y ago
    With a blockchain, you could verify that your vote went through but so can your neighbour. Even if you find some way around that: If you can see how you see how your vote was counted, you are able to prove to someone else how you voted making vote selling possible. These are two big reasons not to use such a system. Personally, I know for certain that my vote in the last election went through because I have seen the complete process myself and have verified that the published vote counts match the once counted in the polling station. There is no black box left.
    - RealityNow 9y ago
      You would need a hash to verify the transaction, and hashes wouldn't be publicly tied to one's identity. Thus if I claim that a hash represents me, then there'd be no way for anybody else to verify that. It's a legitimate concern, but not a hurdle that can't be overcome. So you worked at a polling station that had it's shit together? Great, but that doesn't inspire me much confidence. Though really the main reason I want electronic voting is for convenience (it really is a hassle, and election days aren't national holidays), increased participation, and so that we could move more towards direct democracy and liquid democracy.