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Here are the facts about Unix. * The name "UNIX" or "Unix" is trademarked. * AIX, Solaris and HP-UX are certified Unix systems. These are bonafide Unix system

by foo101 9y ago

Here are the facts about Unix. * The name "UNIX" or "Unix" is trademarked. * AIX, Solaris and HP-UX are certified Unix systems. These are bonafide Unix systems and there indeed are software developers today who work with these Unix systems.[2] * The set of Unix-like systems is a superset of the set of Unix systems. The set of Unix-like systems include systems like Linux, FreeBSD, etc. which the set of certified Unix systems do not. [1]: https://archive.org/details/bstj57-6-1905 https://archive.org/details/bstj57-6-1905 [2]: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/linux-vs-unix-crucial-differences-matter-linux-professionals/ http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/linux-vs-unix-crucial-differenc...

deathanatos 9y ago
If I quizzed engineers, what percentage of them do you think would get that exactly right? Prior to your post, I had myself thought — as Stanley seems to — think that Unix referred to the operating system by that name. I did not know that, > By decree of The Open Group, the term "UNIX" refers more to a class of operating systems than to a specific implementation of an operating system; those operating systems which meet The Open Group's Single UNIX Specification should be able to bear the UNIX 98 or UNIX 03 trademarks today, after the operating system's vendor pays a substantial certification fee and annual trademark royalties to The Open Group. But if I were exchanging information with a candidate, what Stanley provides is more than I would expect from a candidate (even from industry; he seems to be a student); that he isn't exactly on the mark should have been fine. If we really wanted exacts, the recruiter had ample opportunity to explain his/her position, but instead, we get nothing. Stanley took the time to both give his view on things, and give a simple layman's answer that conforms to that view when the tech jargon didn't seem to go over well. That he might be technically wrong is incredibly nitpicky, and I am not persuaded that that was the issue the recruiter had. It still seems like an extremely weird qualification to require, doubly so again for an intern level position: you would still be likely to pass over extremely qualified candidates who just never touched a "UNIX".
- foo101 9y ago
  All I am saying is that when technology people like us are debating about terminology, we can cut the recruiter some slack, be nice to him or her and be more explicit in our communication to the recruiter. For example, instead of responding to "We are looking for experience in Linux and Unix" with "I have updated my resume with POSIX", respond with the following instead assuming you indeed have real Unix experience with a system like Solaris, "I have mentioned Linux and Unix more explicitly in my resume in the following manner: Debian (Linux), CentOS (Linux), Solaris (Unix) and FreeBSD (Unix-like).
  - deathanatos 9y ago
    That is something I would never do, because by doing so, I would by lying. Under the same beliefs as Stanley, I do not have experience with Unix. He does also, at various iterations, include UNIX, Linux, and UNIX-like on his resume, not necessarily at the same time. If there's a particular order, or casing of the word Unix the recruiter is looking for, he or she should just name it. > be more explicit in our communication to the recruiter. The long, technical response is the explicit response.
    - foo101 9y ago
      > He does also, at various iterations, include UNIX, Linux, and UNIX-like on his resume. Where did you find his resume?
      - deathanatos 9y ago
        In the original post. I don't have his entire resume; I am relying on the image on the linked-to Imgur URL. I am interpreting the sections of the image that start with "SKILLS" as a screencap of his resume, my interpretation is that they are interspersed with the email chain in order to give us context as to what is on his resume, since it is material to the discussion.
    - oculusthrift 9y ago
      do you want a job at one of the most prestigious companies or do you value being right on a minute detail more? I would have just added the word "unix" to my resume and moved on with my life.
loeg 9y ago
Actually you're wrong about Linux not being included in the certified set. Inspur K-UX, a Linux distro based on RHEL, is a certified UNIX system. As is EulerOS. Interestingly, MacOS is included in the certified UNIX list. Most of its userspace and a lot of its kernel interfaces come from FreeBSD. So in a way, some of FreeBSD is a certified Unix. Curiously enough, Oracle just killed Solaris. AIX is old. Is it dead? Last release was in 2015. HP-UX was last released a year ago. My guess is that both of these systems are on their last legs. I believe that specific distributions of Linux and versions of FreeBSD could both trivially be Unix certified, if someone wanted to waste the money paying SCO for the designation. Either way, it's a stupid pedantic thing for a recruitor to gate on. (Source: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/ https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/ )
- fiddlerwoaroof 9y ago
  Solaris lives on in illumos and derivatives like Joyent's (now a subsidiary of Samsung) SmatOS. Sure these aren't "Solaris", but it would be a shame if the publicity around Oracle's decision were to kill these projects as well.
  - loeg 9y ago
    Of course Oracle can't kill illumos, et al. But these open source projects are not what SCO has licensed as "real UNIX." They are Unix-alikes.
jolux 9y ago
macOS is also officially a Unix system.
Tepix 9y ago
Interesting fact: Inspur K-UX 2.0 is one of five commercial operating systems that have versions certified to The Open Group UNIX 03 standard and is licensed to use the UNIX trademark. It's Linux based (RedHat family tree).

by foo101 9y ago

deathanatos 9y ago

If I quizzed engineers, what percentage of them do you think would get that exactly right? Prior to your post, I had myself thought — as Stanley seems to — think that Unix referred to the operating system by that name. I did not know that, > By decree of The Open Group, the term "UNIX" refers more to a class of operating systems than to a specific implementation of an operating system; those operating systems which meet The Open Group's Single UNIX Specification should be able to bear the UNIX 98 or UNIX 03 trademarks today, after the operating system's vendor pays a substantial certification fee and annual trademark royalties to The Open Group. But if I were exchanging information with a candidate, what Stanley provides is more than I would expect from a candidate (even from industry; he seems to be a student); that he isn't exactly on the mark should have been fine. If we really wanted exacts, the recruiter had ample opportunity to explain his/her position, but instead, we get nothing. Stanley took the time to both give his view on things, and give a simple layman's answer that conforms to that view when the tech jargon didn't seem to go over well. That he might be technically wrong is incredibly nitpicky, and I am not persuaded that that was the issue the recruiter had. It still seems like an extremely weird qualification to require, doubly so again for an intern level position: you would still be likely to pass over extremely qualified candidates who just never touched a "UNIX".

foo101 9y ago
All I am saying is that when technology people like us are debating about terminology, we can cut the recruiter some slack, be nice to him or her and be more explicit in our communication to the recruiter. For example, instead of responding to "We are looking for experience in Linux and Unix" with "I have updated my resume with POSIX", respond with the following instead assuming you indeed have real Unix experience with a system like Solaris, "I have mentioned Linux and Unix more explicitly in my resume in the following manner: Debian (Linux), CentOS (Linux), Solaris (Unix) and FreeBSD (Unix-like).
- deathanatos 9y ago
  That is something I would never do, because by doing so, I would by lying. Under the same beliefs as Stanley, I do not have experience with Unix. He does also, at various iterations, include UNIX, Linux, and UNIX-like on his resume, not necessarily at the same time. If there's a particular order, or casing of the word Unix the recruiter is looking for, he or she should just name it. > be more explicit in our communication to the recruiter. The long, technical response is the explicit response.
  - foo101 9y ago
    > He does also, at various iterations, include UNIX, Linux, and UNIX-like on his resume. Where did you find his resume?
    - deathanatos 9y ago
      In the original post. I don't have his entire resume; I am relying on the image on the linked-to Imgur URL. I am interpreting the sections of the image that start with "SKILLS" as a screencap of his resume, my interpretation is that they are interspersed with the email chain in order to give us context as to what is on his resume, since it is material to the discussion.
  - oculusthrift 9y ago
    do you want a job at one of the most prestigious companies or do you value being right on a minute detail more? I would have just added the word "unix" to my resume and moved on with my life.

loeg 9y ago

Actually you're wrong about Linux not being included in the certified set. Inspur K-UX, a Linux distro based on RHEL, is a certified UNIX system. As is EulerOS. Interestingly, MacOS is included in the certified UNIX list. Most of its userspace and a lot of its kernel interfaces come from FreeBSD. So in a way, some of FreeBSD is a certified Unix. Curiously enough, Oracle just killed Solaris. AIX is old. Is it dead? Last release was in 2015. HP-UX was last released a year ago. My guess is that both of these systems are on their last legs. I believe that specific distributions of Linux and versions of FreeBSD could both trivially be Unix certified, if someone wanted to waste the money paying SCO for the designation. Either way, it's a stupid pedantic thing for a recruitor to gate on. (Source: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/ https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/ )

fiddlerwoaroof 9y ago
Solaris lives on in illumos and derivatives like Joyent's (now a subsidiary of Samsung) SmatOS. Sure these aren't "Solaris", but it would be a shame if the publicity around Oracle's decision were to kill these projects as well.
- loeg 9y ago
  Of course Oracle can't kill illumos, et al. But these open source projects are not what SCO has licensed as "real UNIX." They are Unix-alikes.

jolux 9y ago

macOS is also officially a Unix system.

Tepix 9y ago

Interesting fact: Inspur K-UX 2.0 is one of five commercial operating systems that have versions certified to The Open Group UNIX 03 standard and is licensed to use the UNIX trademark. It's Linux based (RedHat family tree).