5 ms·

Maybe Google should use openJDK instead of using their own proprietary version of Java. No one benefits of fragmentation.

by haglin 9y ago

bitmapbrother 9y ago
As of Android 7 they do use the OpenJDK. If you're implying that they should replace the Android SDK/ART with OpenJDK/JVM then that would be foolish. The OpenJDK and JVM were never designed to work within the constraints of embedded mobile devices.
- haglin 9y ago
  Why can't Google submit patches to make it work for embedded devices? I don't see the point of a separate version of Java. Imagine if you could develop Android apps against the latest version of Java.
  - sk0g 9y ago
    And Google should spend their time and money improving Java, owned by a company that massively sued them?
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Apparently the server team does exactly that! Search for Google. http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/jvmlangsummit/agenda.html http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/jvmlangsummit/agenda.h... http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/summit2014/agenda.html http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/summit2014/agenda.html
    - s73ver_ 9y ago
      Yes. I don't care about their petty squabble. As an Android dev, I'm sick and tired of not being able to use things because Google thinks they're special.
  - xienze 9y ago
    I think it's more of a legal/licensing move than a technical challenge. You write and compile Java but then it's translated to bytecode for a different VM (Dalvik, I presume this is still the case though I hear there's additional native compilation that occurs now). Net result, developers get to write Java but Google doesn't have to pay royalties for a proper VM on every device.
  - bitmapbrother 9y ago
    What would you use to build the UI for your app? AWT? Swing? JavaFX? There is also the issue of all of the Android specific SDK code that would probably never be applicable for cross platform reuse. And then there's the JVM which would also probably require massive changes to adhere to Android's VM requirements (as it stands right now, ART and the JVM aren't even in the same architectural ballpark as one is register based and the other is stack based). The level of resistance to these changes would introduce would also be a major issue and more so than the friction Google faces when trying to upstream Android related changes to the Linux kernel. Incidentally, there's a project called OpenJDK Mobile[1] on the OpenJDK project site that aims to port the OpenJDK to popular mobile platforms. Not sure where they're at with it, but it seems to be a WIP. [1]http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mobile/ http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mobile/
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      LWAWT could be a start. Then there are quite a few embedded device OEMs that don't have the same problems than Google has supporting standard Java, some of them targeting real time embedded devices. Maybe Google should ask them how they manage to do it.
      - bitmapbrother 9y ago
        Why would they waste their time when Sun/Oracle couldn't even figure it out to this day.
        pjmlp 9y ago
        Sun had it figured out and was even sponsoring SavaJe OS, but then Google ripped off their work and gave it away for free.
        bitmapbrother 9y ago
        No Sun did not have it figured out and history has proven this. Sun just couldn't compete from a technology perspective because no OEM was going to choose a vastly inferior OS. BTW, here's a picture of your SavaJe phone. No wonder OEM's fled in horror. https://www.engadget.com/2006/05/13/savaje-releases-jasper-s20-java-phone/ https://www.engadget.com/2006/05/13/savaje-releases-jasper-s...
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Here it comes again, the Google support team excuse for their Java fork! The JVM is doing just fine controlling embedded devices in factories, printers and phones. http://www.ricoh-developer.com/content/device-sdk-type-j-sdkj-overview http://www.ricoh-developer.com/content/device-sdk-type-j-sdk... https://www.aicas.com/cms/ https://www.aicas.com/cms/ https://developer.cisco.com/media/onePKGettingStarted-v1-1-0/GUID-B72B9643-3E16-4166-A2FA-CD7CBADB6D0A.html https://developer.cisco.com/media/onePKGettingStarted-v1-1-0... https://developer.gemalto.com/taxonomy/term/39/group/80?view=all https://developer.gemalto.com/taxonomy/term/39/group/80?view... http://www.gemalto.com/m2m http://www.gemalto.com/m2m https://www.ptc.com/en/developer-tools/perc https://www.ptc.com/en/developer-tools/perc http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/bg/real-time http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/bg/real-time I just got bored to post links, there are many more I can keep on posting. All from companies that used to work with Sun, nowadays with Oracle, without doing the forking game Google has done.
  - geodel 9y ago
    Well if Java on phone is really fine then Google's pathetic attempts at Android should not matter as billions will keep buying those great Oracle certified Java phones.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Those versions don't exist anymore because the way Google ripped off Sun and offered a gratis version to OEMs and carriers. Nothing to do with technical capabilities, rather money. And lets not forget that also helped Oracle getting Sun. If it was Microsoft, Apple, <whatever corp> everyone would have bashed them, but it is Google, so it is fine.
      - bitmapbrother 9y ago
        No, those Java phones don't exist because they were a failure. Court documents even revealed that Oracle gave up trying to build one.
        9y ago

Maybe Google should use openJDK instead of using their own proprietary version of Java. No one benefits of fragmentation.

by haglin 9y ago

Maybe Google should use openJDK instead of using their own proprietary version of Java. No one benefits of fragmentation.

bitmapbrother 9y ago

As of Android 7 they do use the OpenJDK. If you're implying that they should replace the Android SDK/ART with OpenJDK/JVM then that would be foolish. The OpenJDK and JVM were never designed to work within the constraints of embedded mobile devices.

haglin 9y ago
Why can't Google submit patches to make it work for embedded devices? I don't see the point of a separate version of Java. Imagine if you could develop Android apps against the latest version of Java.
- sk0g 9y ago
  And Google should spend their time and money improving Java, owned by a company that massively sued them?
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Apparently the server team does exactly that! Search for Google. http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/jvmlangsummit/agenda.html http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/jvmlangsummit/agenda.h... http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/summit2014/agenda.html http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/summit2014/agenda.html
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    Yes. I don't care about their petty squabble. As an Android dev, I'm sick and tired of not being able to use things because Google thinks they're special.
- xienze 9y ago
  I think it's more of a legal/licensing move than a technical challenge. You write and compile Java but then it's translated to bytecode for a different VM (Dalvik, I presume this is still the case though I hear there's additional native compilation that occurs now). Net result, developers get to write Java but Google doesn't have to pay royalties for a proper VM on every device.
- bitmapbrother 9y ago
  What would you use to build the UI for your app? AWT? Swing? JavaFX? There is also the issue of all of the Android specific SDK code that would probably never be applicable for cross platform reuse. And then there's the JVM which would also probably require massive changes to adhere to Android's VM requirements (as it stands right now, ART and the JVM aren't even in the same architectural ballpark as one is register based and the other is stack based). The level of resistance to these changes would introduce would also be a major issue and more so than the friction Google faces when trying to upstream Android related changes to the Linux kernel. Incidentally, there's a project called OpenJDK Mobile[1] on the OpenJDK project site that aims to port the OpenJDK to popular mobile platforms. Not sure where they're at with it, but it seems to be a WIP. [1]http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mobile/ http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mobile/
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    LWAWT could be a start. Then there are quite a few embedded device OEMs that don't have the same problems than Google has supporting standard Java, some of them targeting real time embedded devices. Maybe Google should ask them how they manage to do it.
    - bitmapbrother 9y ago
      Why would they waste their time when Sun/Oracle couldn't even figure it out to this day.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Sun had it figured out and was even sponsoring SavaJe OS, but then Google ripped off their work and gave it away for free.
        bitmapbrother 9y ago
        No Sun did not have it figured out and history has proven this. Sun just couldn't compete from a technology perspective because no OEM was going to choose a vastly inferior OS. BTW, here's a picture of your SavaJe phone. No wonder OEM's fled in horror. https://www.engadget.com/2006/05/13/savaje-releases-jasper-s20-java-phone/ https://www.engadget.com/2006/05/13/savaje-releases-jasper-s...
pjmlp 9y ago
Here it comes again, the Google support team excuse for their Java fork! The JVM is doing just fine controlling embedded devices in factories, printers and phones. http://www.ricoh-developer.com/content/device-sdk-type-j-sdkj-overview http://www.ricoh-developer.com/content/device-sdk-type-j-sdk... https://www.aicas.com/cms/ https://www.aicas.com/cms/ https://developer.cisco.com/media/onePKGettingStarted-v1-1-0/GUID-B72B9643-3E16-4166-A2FA-CD7CBADB6D0A.html https://developer.cisco.com/media/onePKGettingStarted-v1-1-0... https://developer.gemalto.com/taxonomy/term/39/group/80?view=all https://developer.gemalto.com/taxonomy/term/39/group/80?view... http://www.gemalto.com/m2m http://www.gemalto.com/m2m https://www.ptc.com/en/developer-tools/perc https://www.ptc.com/en/developer-tools/perc http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/bg/real-time http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/bg/real-time I just got bored to post links, there are many more I can keep on posting. All from companies that used to work with Sun, nowadays with Oracle, without doing the forking game Google has done.
- geodel 9y ago
  Well if Java on phone is really fine then Google's pathetic attempts at Android should not matter as billions will keep buying those great Oracle certified Java phones.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Those versions don't exist anymore because the way Google ripped off Sun and offered a gratis version to OEMs and carriers. Nothing to do with technical capabilities, rather money. And lets not forget that also helped Oracle getting Sun. If it was Microsoft, Apple, <whatever corp> everyone would have bashed them, but it is Google, so it is fine.
    - bitmapbrother 9y ago
      No, those Java phones don't exist because they were a failure. Court documents even revealed that Oracle gave up trying to build one.
      - 9y ago