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You have a good point, but the next sentence clearly states the metric: "Or at least they are not equal in preparing people to be productive in an advanced econ

by ewzimm 9y ago

You have a good point, but the next sentence clearly states the metric: "Or at least they are not equal in preparing people to be productive in an advanced economy." It's not a statement about the artistic or spritual value of cultures, only their ability to create economically productive individuals, which is easy to measure.

StephenMelon 9y ago
“Or at least they are not equal in preparing people to be productive in an advanced economy” is problematic because it can be rephrased as “Or at least they are not equal in preparing people to be (successfully exploited by those who control capital) in a (specific type of) advanced economy (which is rigged in favour of those who are already wealthy and/or educated/connected/privileged in a particular way for historical reasons)”. As a parent, I can vouch for the fact it’s difficult to successfully raise children but there are many other possible ways to support the young in becoming net contributors to society because there are clearly many viable cultural alternatives to the nuclear family that could thrive under a system other than the kleptocratic oligarchy of late US neoliberal globalist vulture techno-capitalism. Wax argues competently but is guilty of a slight lack of imagination as most conservative thinkers are; the preference to move backwards towards a solution based on a mythical idealised point in the past, letting their preferred outcome dull their analysis of their cognitive biases. Unfortunately shutting down debate seems to be the favoured approach of those who are over-engaged with identity politics at the current time. It’s almost as if the left have been infiltrated by self-loathing alt-right 4chan agent provocateur trolls who are so scared of choice and diversity that they want to speed a “return” to a totalitarian hegemonic monoculture by getting the left to do their work for them. I think that the actual situation is maybe more prosaic, a case of undergraduate courses teaching critical theory without first teaching the fundamentals of critical thinking (with social media is turning the heat up across the board). It is clear that cultures can be valued against one another only when metrics can be agreed. Wax seems to unsafely assume that there is a consensus on metrics and I think there is a need for more science and philosophy in that area before real progress can be made. There is such a thing as legitimate authority based on domain knowledge but cultural legitimacy doesn’t seem to quite work in the same way. New generations will experiment with solutions to the problems (and privilege) they are faced with in their time. The debate has become more shrill as the web has accelerated change and revitalised sub-cultures, and conservatism will act, as it always has, as a speed brake on change.
gerbilly 9y ago
But an advanced economy is embedded in and affects the surrounding culture. I see this statement as a tautology, or at the very least as an ill posed question.
ouid 9y ago
>Which is easy to measure I think this might be formally incomputable...
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  Well, it seems to me intuitively obvious that cultures that value education prepare children better for their economic future than cultures that don't value education. I may not be able to compute it. I may not even be able to measure it. But I think that anyone who disagrees is making a far less reasonable claim than I am making, and therefore has the burden of proof.
  - Retra 9y ago
    Well, that depends on what you mean by 'education.' If you mean actual adaptive critical thought, then what you say is true, but almost tautological. If you mean rote indoctrination into an existing way of thought, then it is neither intuitive nor obvious that this leads to a better economic future. If you mean something in the middle, then we could land anywhere in between, couldn't we?
  - ouid 9y ago
    The problem with the computation is over what length of time you define economic future.

by ewzimm 9y ago

StephenMelon 9y ago

“Or at least they are not equal in preparing people to be productive in an advanced economy” is problematic because it can be rephrased as “Or at least they are not equal in preparing people to be (successfully exploited by those who control capital) in a (specific type of) advanced economy (which is rigged in favour of those who are already wealthy and/or educated/connected/privileged in a particular way for historical reasons)”. As a parent, I can vouch for the fact it’s difficult to successfully raise children but there are many other possible ways to support the young in becoming net contributors to society because there are clearly many viable cultural alternatives to the nuclear family that could thrive under a system other than the kleptocratic oligarchy of late US neoliberal globalist vulture techno-capitalism. Wax argues competently but is guilty of a slight lack of imagination as most conservative thinkers are; the preference to move backwards towards a solution based on a mythical idealised point in the past, letting their preferred outcome dull their analysis of their cognitive biases. Unfortunately shutting down debate seems to be the favoured approach of those who are over-engaged with identity politics at the current time. It’s almost as if the left have been infiltrated by self-loathing alt-right 4chan agent provocateur trolls who are so scared of choice and diversity that they want to speed a “return” to a totalitarian hegemonic monoculture by getting the left to do their work for them. I think that the actual situation is maybe more prosaic, a case of undergraduate courses teaching critical theory without first teaching the fundamentals of critical thinking (with social media is turning the heat up across the board). It is clear that cultures can be valued against one another only when metrics can be agreed. Wax seems to unsafely assume that there is a consensus on metrics and I think there is a need for more science and philosophy in that area before real progress can be made. There is such a thing as legitimate authority based on domain knowledge but cultural legitimacy doesn’t seem to quite work in the same way. New generations will experiment with solutions to the problems (and privilege) they are faced with in their time. The debate has become more shrill as the web has accelerated change and revitalised sub-cultures, and conservatism will act, as it always has, as a speed brake on change.

gerbilly 9y ago

But an advanced economy is embedded in and affects the surrounding culture. I see this statement as a tautology, or at the very least as an ill posed question.

ouid 9y ago

>Which is easy to measure I think this might be formally incomputable...

AnimalMuppet 9y ago
Well, it seems to me intuitively obvious that cultures that value education prepare children better for their economic future than cultures that don't value education. I may not be able to compute it. I may not even be able to measure it. But I think that anyone who disagrees is making a far less reasonable claim than I am making, and therefore has the burden of proof.
- Retra 9y ago
  Well, that depends on what you mean by 'education.' If you mean actual adaptive critical thought, then what you say is true, but almost tautological. If you mean rote indoctrination into an existing way of thought, then it is neither intuitive nor obvious that this leads to a better economic future. If you mean something in the middle, then we could land anywhere in between, couldn't we?
- ouid 9y ago
  The problem with the computation is over what length of time you define economic future.