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Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value dilig

Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value diligent hard work Which culture? Don't be abstract. Name what culture you think doesn't value hard work and I will and we'll see if I can't find a counterexample.

marcoperaza 9y ago
I prefer positive examples. It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity.
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  They are also benefiting heavily from genetics, their average IQ being roughly an entire standard deviation above average.
- gras 9y ago
  How is this at all controversial? The American Jewish minority of 6% of the population owns 25% of American wealth. They've done well. Are the downvotes about attributing it to their values? What else? Their skill at (((accidental))) eugenics? The selection pressure put on them by other groups? Other theory: KGB or Mossad votebots that want to suppress discussions about Jews not only being victims.
  - marcoperaza 9y ago
    I was only speaking admirably of the Jews. I'm not sure what you're getting at, or what's sarcastic or not in your post. But I don't see the need for the triple-parentheses.
  - baddox 9y ago
    I'm not saying it's controversial, but I'd rather see strong evidence that just make assumptions based on general cultural stereotypes like "Jewish people work hard" or weak evidence like "they own a disproportionate amount of wealth."
    - saalweachter 9y ago
      Eh, it's a little bit controversial. As nearly as I can tell the 25% figure comes from Stormfront, and I've been unable to find any independent source for it; the triple parenthesis are a bit of a tip off. It is probably a corruption of a claim that 25% of US billionaires were Jewish, which is a radically different claim.
      - gras 9y ago
        I've actually never seen Stormfront, but you're right that my sources are shit. I've not been able to find any figures on what the correct percentage would be, and Wikipedia says that only 2% of America is Jewish. And it is closer to 30% of the Forbes 400 now, and 30% of the top 100.
  - spaceseaman 9y ago
    It's likely being down-voted because it is brought up in the context of black Americans. In this context a quite frustrating argument familiar to black Americans often follows: "If the Jews are okay, then how come you couldn't figure it out? HMMMMMM? That's what I thought." is heard often when bringing up the American Jewish within the context of this discussion. While I don't agree with down-voting a comment that smells similar to something toxic (I doubt the grand-parent intended this interpretation). The highly negative reaction is likely due to the frequency with which this argument is brought up, and its lack of any validity. Comparing the American Jewish to African-Americans is an apples-to-oranges comparison. The time spans for the comparison are horribly different - When were Jews recently generationally slaved for centuries? The thing that really annoys me about this comparison between Jews and African Americans is "because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity". In my opinion these values of Jewish Americans are obtained through the tightly ingrained religious and familial structures. Unlike the Jewish, however, African-Americans' culture was systematically annihilated when they were enslaved. There are few traces of African religions and customs that remained after slavery. Any shared values were destroyed by such an event. You can similarly say that the massive amounts of black males that have since been imprisoned for minor drug crimes in the U.S. has had a similar effect on the familial unit. The plights of Jewish and Black Americans in the U.S. have been very different. This is likely why people reacted poorly to the subject being brought up.
    - marcoperaza 9y ago
      >Unlike the Jewish, however, African-Americans' culture was systematically annihilated when they were enslaved. Yes, Black Americans have suffered a truly horrible history of oppression that has caused cultural problems. If anything, you're agreeing with Wax that culture matters.
- chickenfries 9y ago
  > It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity This is a commonly held hypothesis but the question of "why are the Jews successful despite being outsiders" is complicated and not in any way settled. What I know of it comes from reading some of "the origins of totalitarianism" Hannah Arendt. "The Jews are really hardworking" is a lazy and easy explanation for the question of how some Jews have flourished despite persecution. It is not simply the case that culture is the proximal cause of (some) Jewish wealth than the particular material conditions of certain Jews throughout history that has lead to the affluence of and importance of some, mostly European Jews. For example, many Jews came to have a privileged position in European courts because of the rise of protestantism (a hardworking culture that doesn't value credit, something that Wax would probably say is "bad"). You're ignoring politics and history when you just chalk everything up to culture. It's survivorship bias at it's finest. Edit: I butchered a sentence in the middle of my comment. Added a line break.
- mannykannot 9y ago
  Many, if not all, successful cultures have a tradition of helping others overcome difficulties. Maybe that's what we should be looking at, rather than making too much of a deal of the fate of the excellent, who are generally well-able to look after themselves. Society is not a zero-sum game, unless we choose to play it that way.
darawk 9y ago
It is a fact that different cultures value things differently. Japanese culture has different values than Hawaiian culture, or southern white culture. Where there is difference in kind, there is different in adaptation. Every culture likely has its advantages in some areas, but not every one of those areas is deemed valuable by a modern society or economy. It is an inescapable fact that some ways of living, and some systems of moral and social values are more conducive to a modern, democratic capitalist society than others. What we choose to do about that is up for debate. The fact of the situation, however, is not.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Veelox 9y ago
>Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. I don't follow. The quote strongly applies that freedom is preferable to slavery even if some would want otherwise.

marcoperaza 9y ago

I prefer positive examples. It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity.

TheCoelacanth 9y ago
They are also benefiting heavily from genetics, their average IQ being roughly an entire standard deviation above average.
gras 9y ago
How is this at all controversial? The American Jewish minority of 6% of the population owns 25% of American wealth. They've done well. Are the downvotes about attributing it to their values? What else? Their skill at (((accidental))) eugenics? The selection pressure put on them by other groups? Other theory: KGB or Mossad votebots that want to suppress discussions about Jews not only being victims.
- marcoperaza 9y ago
  I was only speaking admirably of the Jews. I'm not sure what you're getting at, or what's sarcastic or not in your post. But I don't see the need for the triple-parentheses.
- baddox 9y ago
  I'm not saying it's controversial, but I'd rather see strong evidence that just make assumptions based on general cultural stereotypes like "Jewish people work hard" or weak evidence like "they own a disproportionate amount of wealth."
  - saalweachter 9y ago
    Eh, it's a little bit controversial. As nearly as I can tell the 25% figure comes from Stormfront, and I've been unable to find any independent source for it; the triple parenthesis are a bit of a tip off. It is probably a corruption of a claim that 25% of US billionaires were Jewish, which is a radically different claim.
    - gras 9y ago
      I've actually never seen Stormfront, but you're right that my sources are shit. I've not been able to find any figures on what the correct percentage would be, and Wikipedia says that only 2% of America is Jewish. And it is closer to 30% of the Forbes 400 now, and 30% of the top 100.
- spaceseaman 9y ago
  It's likely being down-voted because it is brought up in the context of black Americans. In this context a quite frustrating argument familiar to black Americans often follows: "If the Jews are okay, then how come you couldn't figure it out? HMMMMMM? That's what I thought." is heard often when bringing up the American Jewish within the context of this discussion. While I don't agree with down-voting a comment that smells similar to something toxic (I doubt the grand-parent intended this interpretation). The highly negative reaction is likely due to the frequency with which this argument is brought up, and its lack of any validity. Comparing the American Jewish to African-Americans is an apples-to-oranges comparison. The time spans for the comparison are horribly different - When were Jews recently generationally slaved for centuries? The thing that really annoys me about this comparison between Jews and African Americans is "because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity". In my opinion these values of Jewish Americans are obtained through the tightly ingrained religious and familial structures. Unlike the Jewish, however, African-Americans' culture was systematically annihilated when they were enslaved. There are few traces of African religions and customs that remained after slavery. Any shared values were destroyed by such an event. You can similarly say that the massive amounts of black males that have since been imprisoned for minor drug crimes in the U.S. has had a similar effect on the familial unit. The plights of Jewish and Black Americans in the U.S. have been very different. This is likely why people reacted poorly to the subject being brought up.
  - marcoperaza 9y ago
    >Unlike the Jewish, however, African-Americans' culture was systematically annihilated when they were enslaved. Yes, Black Americans have suffered a truly horrible history of oppression that has caused cultural problems. If anything, you're agreeing with Wax that culture matters.
chickenfries 9y ago
> It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity This is a commonly held hypothesis but the question of "why are the Jews successful despite being outsiders" is complicated and not in any way settled. What I know of it comes from reading some of "the origins of totalitarianism" Hannah Arendt. "The Jews are really hardworking" is a lazy and easy explanation for the question of how some Jews have flourished despite persecution. It is not simply the case that culture is the proximal cause of (some) Jewish wealth than the particular material conditions of certain Jews throughout history that has lead to the affluence of and importance of some, mostly European Jews. For example, many Jews came to have a privileged position in European courts because of the rise of protestantism (a hardworking culture that doesn't value credit, something that Wax would probably say is "bad"). You're ignoring politics and history when you just chalk everything up to culture. It's survivorship bias at it's finest. Edit: I butchered a sentence in the middle of my comment. Added a line break.
mannykannot 9y ago
Many, if not all, successful cultures have a tradition of helping others overcome difficulties. Maybe that's what we should be looking at, rather than making too much of a deal of the fate of the excellent, who are generally well-able to look after themselves. Society is not a zero-sum game, unless we choose to play it that way.

darawk 9y ago

It is a fact that different cultures value things differently. Japanese culture has different values than Hawaiian culture, or southern white culture. Where there is difference in kind, there is different in adaptation. Every culture likely has its advantages in some areas, but not every one of those areas is deemed valuable by a modern society or economy. It is an inescapable fact that some ways of living, and some systems of moral and social values are more conducive to a modern, democratic capitalist society than others. What we choose to do about that is up for debate. The fact of the situation, however, is not.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Veelox 9y ago

>Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. I don't follow. The quote strongly applies that freedom is preferable to slavery even if some would want otherwise.