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The only way to accomplish the latter is to pull the excellent down to the level of mediocrity or worse. How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't v

• chickenfries 9y ago
  Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value diligent hard work Which culture? Don't be abstract. Name what culture you think doesn't value hard work and I will and we'll see if I can't find a counterexample.
  • marcoperaza 9y ago
    I prefer positive examples. It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity.
    • TheCoelacanth 9y ago
      They are also benefiting heavily from genetics, their average IQ being roughly an entire standard deviation above average.
    • gras 9y ago
      How is this at all controversial? The American Jewish minority of 6% of the population owns 25% of American wealth. They've done well. Are the downvotes about attributing it to their values? What else? Their skill at (((accidental))) eugenics? The selection pressure put on them by other groups? Other theory: KGB or Mossad votebots that want to suppress discussions about Jews not only being victims.
      • marcoperaza 9y ago
        I was only speaking admirably of the Jews. I'm not sure what you're getting at, or what's sarcastic or not in your post. But I don't see the need for the triple-parentheses.
      • baddox 9y ago
        I'm not saying it's controversial, but I'd rather see strong evidence that just make assumptions based on general cultural stereotypes like "Jewish people work hard" or weak evidence like "they own a disproportionate amount of wealth."
        • saalweachter 9y ago
          Eh, it's a little bit controversial. As nearly as I can tell the 25% figure comes from Stormfront, and I've been unable to find any independent source for it; the triple parenthesis are a bit of a tip off. It is probably a corruption of a claim that 25% of US billionaires were Jewish, which is a radically different claim.
          • gras 9y ago
            I've actually never seen Stormfront, but you're right that my sources are shit. I've not been able to find any figures on what the correct percentage would be, and Wikipedia says that only 2% of America is Jewish. And it is closer to 30% of the Forbes 400 now, and 30% of the top 100.
      • spaceseaman 9y ago
        It's likely being down-voted because it is brought up in the context of black Americans. In this context a quite frustrating argument familiar to black Americans often follows: "If the Jews are okay, then how come you couldn't figure it out? HMMMMMM? That's what I thought." is heard often when bringing up the American Jewish within the context of this discussion. While I don't agree with down-voting a comment that smells similar to something toxic (I doubt the grand-parent intended this interpretation). The highly negative reaction is likely due to the frequency with which this argument is brought up, and its lack of any validity. Comparing the American Jewish to African-Americans is an apples-to-oranges comparison. The time spans for the comparison are horribly different - When were Jews recently generationally slaved for centuries? The thing that really annoys me about this comparison between Jews and African Americans is "because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity". In my opinion these values of Jewish Americans are obtained through the tightly ingrained religious and familial structures. Unlike the Jewish, however, African-Americans' culture was systematically annihilated when they were enslaved. There are few traces of African religions and customs that remained after slavery. Any shared values were destroyed by such an event. You can similarly say that the massive amounts of black males that have since been imprisoned for minor drug crimes in the U.S. has had a similar effect on the familial unit. The plights of Jewish and Black Americans in the U.S. have been very different. This is likely why people reacted poorly to the subject being brought up.
    • chickenfries 9y ago
      > It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity This is a commonly held hypothesis but the question of "why are the Jews successful despite being outsiders" is complicated and not in any way settled. What I know of it comes from reading some of "the origins of totalitarianism" Hannah Arendt. "The Jews are really hardworking" is a lazy and easy explanation for the question of how some Jews have flourished despite persecution. It is not simply the case that culture is the proximal cause of (some) Jewish wealth than the particular material conditions of certain Jews throughout history that has lead to the affluence of and importance of some, mostly European Jews. For example, many Jews came to have a privileged position in European courts because of the rise of protestantism (a hardworking culture that doesn't value credit, something that Wax would probably say is "bad"). You're ignoring politics and history when you just chalk everything up to culture. It's survivorship bias at it's finest. Edit: I butchered a sentence in the middle of my comment. Added a line break.
    • mannykannot 9y ago
      Many, if not all, successful cultures have a tradition of helping others overcome difficulties. Maybe that's what we should be looking at, rather than making too much of a deal of the fate of the excellent, who are generally well-able to look after themselves. Society is not a zero-sum game, unless we choose to play it that way.
  • darawk 9y ago
    It is a fact that different cultures value things differently. Japanese culture has different values than Hawaiian culture, or southern white culture. Where there is difference in kind, there is different in adaptation. Every culture likely has its advantages in some areas, but not every one of those areas is deemed valuable by a modern society or economy. It is an inescapable fact that some ways of living, and some systems of moral and social values are more conducive to a modern, democratic capitalist society than others. What we choose to do about that is up for debate. The fact of the situation, however, is not.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • Veelox 9y ago
    >Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. I don't follow. The quote strongly applies that freedom is preferable to slavery even if some would want otherwise.
• ruthvik947 9y ago
  This is not a very meaningful argument if you don't provide metrics for 'excellence' and 'success'
  • Veelox 9y ago
    Some metrics that assume long happy healthy secure lives are preferable. * Life expectancy: this assumes longer is better * Rate of suicide: happy secure people generally don't commit suicide * Rate of preventable deceases: says something about health * Rate of violent crime: secure people don't have to deal with crime
• rukittenme 9y ago
  I would recommend people read or re-read "Democracy in America". I've read it several times and each time I find a new layer of truth in the work.
• wmf 9y ago
  How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Lots of welfare, which gets back to the original point about marriage vs. single parents.
• tpeo 9y ago
  Where's the instinct towards doing nothing and minding your own business? I feel left out.
• bcoates 9y ago
  Culture and society engage with one another. To take an extremely concrete example, our society takes every possible opportunity to treat young unwed mothers like absolute shit. "Raising up" the culture of people who are unsurprised that people at the peak of their fertility tend to get pregnant even in an environment where marriage is increasingly unattainable to that population is more about not going out of our way to kick people while they're down than hobbling the excellent.
  • antisthenes 9y ago
    I take huge issue with this statement because it tries to sneak certain statements past the reader without evidence. How do you mean marriage is increasingly unattainable ? A marriage license costs $55. Are you alluding to something else here? Single mothers are one of the last bastions of subsidies and welfare, especially considering how everything else has been scaled down in the recent years. > our society takes every possible opportunity to treat young unwed mothers like absolute shit. I have plenty of anecdata to the contrary. I'd like to hear why you think this, there must be a somewhat personal reason.
    • Veelox 9y ago
      Not op and not exactly what you ask for. Welfare is structured so that single moms get more money if they stay single. It is bad for the kids to grow up without a father and it is bad for society to encourage it. Source: Wife worked in a homeless shelter.
      • antisthenes 9y ago
        Appreciated all the same. Poor policies that leave people in poverty traps (e.g. having a single mom find a job that pays barely above her welfare benefits shouldn't be stripping her of benefits, but a much more gradual sliding scale instead) should constantly be brought to light and fixed. > It is bad for the kids to grow up without a father and it is bad for society to encourage it. Absolutely, but to fix that we also have to look at why the fathers aren't sticking around, not only why single mothers aren't remarrying and/or getting out of poverty quicker.