11 ms·

I think underlying many of these discussions is a fundamental question: "If not all cultures and values are equally successful in modern society, should we (as

I think underlying many of these discussions is a fundamental question: "If not all cultures and values are equally successful in modern society, should we (as a society) encourage people to adopt a more successful values, or should we adapt society to make all cultures and values equally successful?" (edit: obviously I have biases, but I tried to phase this in a way that masked my biases. If there's a more neutral way to phrase this, I'd be interested in hearing it)

0xbear 9y ago
And the question below that is, who's "we"?
marcoperaza 9y ago
The only way to accomplish the latter is to pull the excellent down to the level of mediocrity or worse. How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Culture is much more than what food you eat and music you listen to. This reminds me of a famous Tocqueville quote: There is in fact a manly and legitimate passion for equality that spurs all men to wish to be strong and esteemed. This passion tends to elevate the lesser to the rank of the greater. But one also finds in the human heart a depraved taste for equality which impels the weak to want to bring the strong down to their level and which reduces men to preferring equality in servitude to inequality in freedom.
- chickenfries 9y ago
  Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value diligent hard work Which culture? Don't be abstract. Name what culture you think doesn't value hard work and I will and we'll see if I can't find a counterexample.
  - marcoperaza 9y ago
    I prefer positive examples. It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity.
    - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
      They are also benefiting heavily from genetics, their average IQ being roughly an entire standard deviation above average.
    - gras 9y ago
      How is this at all controversial? The American Jewish minority of 6% of the population owns 25% of American wealth. They've done well. Are the downvotes about attributing it to their values? What else? Their skill at (((accidental))) eugenics? The selection pressure put on them by other groups? Other theory: KGB or Mossad votebots that want to suppress discussions about Jews not only being victims.
      - marcoperaza 9y ago
        I was only speaking admirably of the Jews. I'm not sure what you're getting at, or what's sarcastic or not in your post. But I don't see the need for the triple-parentheses.
      - baddox 9y ago
        I'm not saying it's controversial, but I'd rather see strong evidence that just make assumptions based on general cultural stereotypes like "Jewish people work hard" or weak evidence like "they own a disproportionate amount of wealth."
        saalweachter 9y ago
        Eh, it's a little bit controversial. As nearly as I can tell the 25% figure comes from Stormfront, and I've been unable to find any independent source for it; the triple parenthesis are a bit of a tip off. It is probably a corruption of a claim that 25% of US billionaires were Jewish, which is a radically different claim.
  - darawk 9y ago
    It is a fact that different cultures value things differently. Japanese culture has different values than Hawaiian culture, or southern white culture. Where there is difference in kind, there is different in adaptation. Every culture likely has its advantages in some areas, but not every one of those areas is deemed valuable by a modern society or economy. It is an inescapable fact that some ways of living, and some systems of moral and social values are more conducive to a modern, democratic capitalist society than others. What we choose to do about that is up for debate. The fact of the situation, however, is not.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Veelox 9y ago
    >Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. I don't follow. The quote strongly applies that freedom is preferable to slavery even if some would want otherwise.
- ruthvik947 9y ago
  This is not a very meaningful argument if you don't provide metrics for 'excellence' and 'success'
  - Veelox 9y ago
    Some metrics that assume long happy healthy secure lives are preferable. * Life expectancy: this assumes longer is better * Rate of suicide: happy secure people generally don't commit suicide * Rate of preventable deceases: says something about health * Rate of violent crime: secure people don't have to deal with crime
- rukittenme 9y ago
  I would recommend people read or re-read "Democracy in America". I've read it several times and each time I find a new layer of truth in the work.
- wmf 9y ago
  How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Lots of welfare, which gets back to the original point about marriage vs. single parents.
- tpeo 9y ago
  Where's the instinct towards doing nothing and minding your own business? I feel left out.
- bcoates 9y ago
  Culture and society engage with one another. To take an extremely concrete example, our society takes every possible opportunity to treat young unwed mothers like absolute shit. "Raising up" the culture of people who are unsurprised that people at the peak of their fertility tend to get pregnant even in an environment where marriage is increasingly unattainable to that population is more about not going out of our way to kick people while they're down than hobbling the excellent.
  - antisthenes 9y ago
    I take huge issue with this statement because it tries to sneak certain statements past the reader without evidence. How do you mean marriage is increasingly unattainable ? A marriage license costs $55. Are you alluding to something else here? Single mothers are one of the last bastions of subsidies and welfare, especially considering how everything else has been scaled down in the recent years. > our society takes every possible opportunity to treat young unwed mothers like absolute shit. I have plenty of anecdata to the contrary. I'd like to hear why you think this, there must be a somewhat personal reason.
    - Veelox 9y ago
      Not op and not exactly what you ask for. Welfare is structured so that single moms get more money if they stay single. It is bad for the kids to grow up without a father and it is bad for society to encourage it. Source: Wife worked in a homeless shelter.
      - antisthenes 9y ago
        Appreciated all the same. Poor policies that leave people in poverty traps (e.g. having a single mom find a job that pays barely above her welfare benefits shouldn't be stripping her of benefits, but a much more gradual sliding scale instead) should constantly be brought to light and fixed. > It is bad for the kids to grow up without a father and it is bad for society to encourage it. Absolutely, but to fix that we also have to look at why the fathers aren't sticking around, not only why single mothers aren't remarrying and/or getting out of poverty quicker.
steanne 9y ago
successful cultures don't necessarily scale within a society if some of what makes them successful is taking advantage of other cultures.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
contravariant 9y ago
>should we adapt society to make all cultures and values equally successful? Given that this includes people who value a society where particular values aren't successful, it is probably not possible to have a society like that.

0xbear 9y ago

And the question below that is, who's "we"?

marcoperaza 9y ago

The only way to accomplish the latter is to pull the excellent down to the level of mediocrity or worse. How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Culture is much more than what food you eat and music you listen to. This reminds me of a famous Tocqueville quote: There is in fact a manly and legitimate passion for equality that spurs all men to wish to be strong and esteemed. This passion tends to elevate the lesser to the rank of the greater. But one also finds in the human heart a depraved taste for equality which impels the weak to want to bring the strong down to their level and which reduces men to preferring equality in servitude to inequality in freedom.

chickenfries 9y ago
Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value diligent hard work Which culture? Don't be abstract. Name what culture you think doesn't value hard work and I will and we'll see if I can't find a counterexample.
- marcoperaza 9y ago
  I prefer positive examples. It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity.
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    They are also benefiting heavily from genetics, their average IQ being roughly an entire standard deviation above average.
  - gras 9y ago
    How is this at all controversial? The American Jewish minority of 6% of the population owns 25% of American wealth. They've done well. Are the downvotes about attributing it to their values? What else? Their skill at (((accidental))) eugenics? The selection pressure put on them by other groups? Other theory: KGB or Mossad votebots that want to suppress discussions about Jews not only being victims.
    - marcoperaza 9y ago
      I was only speaking admirably of the Jews. I'm not sure what you're getting at, or what's sarcastic or not in your post. But I don't see the need for the triple-parentheses.
    - baddox 9y ago
      I'm not saying it's controversial, but I'd rather see strong evidence that just make assumptions based on general cultural stereotypes like "Jewish people work hard" or weak evidence like "they own a disproportionate amount of wealth."
      - saalweachter 9y ago
        Eh, it's a little bit controversial. As nearly as I can tell the 25% figure comes from Stormfront, and I've been unable to find any independent source for it; the triple parenthesis are a bit of a tip off. It is probably a corruption of a claim that 25% of US billionaires were Jewish, which is a radically different claim.
- darawk 9y ago
  It is a fact that different cultures value things differently. Japanese culture has different values than Hawaiian culture, or southern white culture. Where there is difference in kind, there is different in adaptation. Every culture likely has its advantages in some areas, but not every one of those areas is deemed valuable by a modern society or economy. It is an inescapable fact that some ways of living, and some systems of moral and social values are more conducive to a modern, democratic capitalist society than others. What we choose to do about that is up for debate. The fact of the situation, however, is not.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Veelox 9y ago
  >Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. I don't follow. The quote strongly applies that freedom is preferable to slavery even if some would want otherwise.
ruthvik947 9y ago
This is not a very meaningful argument if you don't provide metrics for 'excellence' and 'success'
- Veelox 9y ago
  Some metrics that assume long happy healthy secure lives are preferable. * Life expectancy: this assumes longer is better * Rate of suicide: happy secure people generally don't commit suicide * Rate of preventable deceases: says something about health * Rate of violent crime: secure people don't have to deal with crime
rukittenme 9y ago
I would recommend people read or re-read "Democracy in America". I've read it several times and each time I find a new layer of truth in the work.
wmf 9y ago
How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Lots of welfare, which gets back to the original point about marriage vs. single parents.
tpeo 9y ago
Where's the instinct towards doing nothing and minding your own business? I feel left out.
bcoates 9y ago
Culture and society engage with one another. To take an extremely concrete example, our society takes every possible opportunity to treat young unwed mothers like absolute shit. "Raising up" the culture of people who are unsurprised that people at the peak of their fertility tend to get pregnant even in an environment where marriage is increasingly unattainable to that population is more about not going out of our way to kick people while they're down than hobbling the excellent.
- antisthenes 9y ago
  I take huge issue with this statement because it tries to sneak certain statements past the reader without evidence. How do you mean marriage is increasingly unattainable ? A marriage license costs $55. Are you alluding to something else here? Single mothers are one of the last bastions of subsidies and welfare, especially considering how everything else has been scaled down in the recent years. > our society takes every possible opportunity to treat young unwed mothers like absolute shit. I have plenty of anecdata to the contrary. I'd like to hear why you think this, there must be a somewhat personal reason.
  - Veelox 9y ago
    Not op and not exactly what you ask for. Welfare is structured so that single moms get more money if they stay single. It is bad for the kids to grow up without a father and it is bad for society to encourage it. Source: Wife worked in a homeless shelter.
    - antisthenes 9y ago
      Appreciated all the same. Poor policies that leave people in poverty traps (e.g. having a single mom find a job that pays barely above her welfare benefits shouldn't be stripping her of benefits, but a much more gradual sliding scale instead) should constantly be brought to light and fixed. > It is bad for the kids to grow up without a father and it is bad for society to encourage it. Absolutely, but to fix that we also have to look at why the fathers aren't sticking around, not only why single mothers aren't remarrying and/or getting out of poverty quicker.

steanne 9y ago

successful cultures don't necessarily scale within a society if some of what makes them successful is taking advantage of other cultures.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

contravariant 9y ago

>should we adapt society to make all cultures and values equally successful? Given that this includes people who value a society where particular values aren't successful, it is probably not possible to have a society like that.