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There is still the real possibility that life is actually pointless. And there is no real justification why humans should rule this instead of any other species

by okket 9y ago

There is still the real possibility that life is actually pointless. And there is no real justification why humans should rule this instead of any other species. Except made up ones, of course.

turc1656 9y ago
There is a scientific theory out that has yet to be proven, but addresses the actual purpose of life. https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-of-the-origin-of-life-20140122/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-o... TL;DR (with my philosophical interpretations included) - his claim is that life occurs as a natural process to help dissipate concentrations of energy. This occurs because the universe is on a never-ending march toward higher entropy and life is a tool to help it achieve that goal - the goal being maximum entropy and the effective end of the universe as we know it, a situation where all matter is in its most stable state and no energy can be obtained from anything anymore. So we are here to help the universe and all life die.
- contras1970 9y ago
  life cannot exist without (outside / away from) energy gradients. is the purpose of life to speed up destruction of its environment? even if the answer is yes which i disagree with, it's only an approximative answer: it's immediately followed by "ok but why is it so?" imo, life has as much purpose as stars have: none. it's the wrong question to ask. life is simply there, just like stars are there. it "materializes" when-and-where there are the right conditions (a narrow spectrum of energy gradients), just like stars do (the spectra are extremely far apart, of course).
- mannykannot 9y ago
  To be clear, all of the teleological claims here are your own philosophical interpretations; they do not appear to be in the paper discussed in the link you have given. If we accept your interpretation, then I think we must conclude that the purpose of life is to hasten its own extinction, by accelerating dissipative processes.
joefourier 9y ago
What would differentiate a real justification from a "made up one"? Point, purpose, justification, etc. are by definition human concepts; without humans, things just are.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- okket 9y ago
  With evidence we can refute made up justifications. If we want to. Not all do. In fact, the huge majority prefers made up reasons. If we humans perish, our knowledge could survive us. What we have found out about how nature works transcends our species. That is not a good justification why life exists, but at least this reason is not limited to humans, like all other ones. And if there is no one else that can use our knowledge, and no one comes after us, life was pointless all along.
  - dwaltrip 9y ago
    You might feel that life is pointless, but you don't speak for everyone. You have already admitted that individuals may enjoy life and find much meaning, so it seems only honest to append a very large qualifier to your "life is pointless" belief.
deleted 9y ago
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loup-vaillant 9y ago
> There is still the real possibility that life is actually pointless. No there isn't, for a simple reason: I enjoy life, many others do, and those who don't generally want to enjoy it. The point is what we want. Not some external criterion we have yet to discover. (Some Christian fundamentalists make a similar mistake, believing there would be no morals without God —as if we haven't eaten the damn fruit already.) Now there's this tiny little problem about resolving conflicts: we have yet to extrapolate a collective will from lots of individual wills in a way we'd all agree is "fair" —I believe we have demonstrated the absence of a general solution. The overlap however is quite comprehensive, so I have hope.
- okket 9y ago
  Of course, we individuals can find meaning and purpose in our life. Through family, creativity, social bonds, etc. But I am thinking about life as the whole humanity, the whole nature. I do not think individual purpose answers the questions why life or humans should exist.
  - loup-vaillant 9y ago
    > I do not think individual purpose answers the questions why life or humans should exist. What we should do is defined by what we want. Most of us want life and humans to continue to exist. Therefore they should. It's that simple.
- yters 9y ago
  Once you are dead you won't enjoy it and you won't care, so there is no reason to prefer life to death by that criterion.
dogma1138 9y ago
Life might be nothing more than the most efficient way to hydrate carbon (entropy ftw). Intelligent life is so far subjectively the most amazing thing that has happened in this universe. We are the only intelligent species on our planet, our planet is the only place where we know for sure life exists in our solar system. Based on our limited observations we are also the only intelligent beings in our galaxy at least at this time period. While intelligent life may have no interensic meaning we have the capacity to give our life and the life of future generations meaning, this trait is quite likely the result of natural selection. We study history, cherish our past, honor our heroes and plan for a better future and this is a universal trait that we as a species share. Saying that life has no meaning is a pointless argument there is nothing to benefit from making this assumption, in fact you lose everything.

by okket 9y ago

There is still the real possibility that life is actually pointless. And there is no real justification why humans should rule this instead of any other species. Except made up ones, of course.

turc1656 9y ago

There is a scientific theory out that has yet to be proven, but addresses the actual purpose of life. https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-of-the-origin-of-life-20140122/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-o... TL;DR (with my philosophical interpretations included) - his claim is that life occurs as a natural process to help dissipate concentrations of energy. This occurs because the universe is on a never-ending march toward higher entropy and life is a tool to help it achieve that goal - the goal being maximum entropy and the effective end of the universe as we know it, a situation where all matter is in its most stable state and no energy can be obtained from anything anymore. So we are here to help the universe and all life die.

contras1970 9y ago
life cannot exist without (outside / away from) energy gradients. is the purpose of life to speed up destruction of its environment? even if the answer is yes which i disagree with, it's only an approximative answer: it's immediately followed by "ok but why is it so?" imo, life has as much purpose as stars have: none. it's the wrong question to ask. life is simply there, just like stars are there. it "materializes" when-and-where there are the right conditions (a narrow spectrum of energy gradients), just like stars do (the spectra are extremely far apart, of course).
mannykannot 9y ago
To be clear, all of the teleological claims here are your own philosophical interpretations; they do not appear to be in the paper discussed in the link you have given. If we accept your interpretation, then I think we must conclude that the purpose of life is to hasten its own extinction, by accelerating dissipative processes.

joefourier 9y ago

What would differentiate a real justification from a "made up one"? Point, purpose, justification, etc. are by definition human concepts; without humans, things just are.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
okket 9y ago
With evidence we can refute made up justifications. If we want to. Not all do. In fact, the huge majority prefers made up reasons. If we humans perish, our knowledge could survive us. What we have found out about how nature works transcends our species. That is not a good justification why life exists, but at least this reason is not limited to humans, like all other ones. And if there is no one else that can use our knowledge, and no one comes after us, life was pointless all along.
- dwaltrip 9y ago
  You might feel that life is pointless, but you don't speak for everyone. You have already admitted that individuals may enjoy life and find much meaning, so it seems only honest to append a very large qualifier to your "life is pointless" belief.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

loup-vaillant 9y ago

> There is still the real possibility that life is actually pointless. No there isn't, for a simple reason: I enjoy life, many others do, and those who don't generally want to enjoy it. The point is what we want. Not some external criterion we have yet to discover. (Some Christian fundamentalists make a similar mistake, believing there would be no morals without God —as if we haven't eaten the damn fruit already.) Now there's this tiny little problem about resolving conflicts: we have yet to extrapolate a collective will from lots of individual wills in a way we'd all agree is "fair" —I believe we have demonstrated the absence of a general solution. The overlap however is quite comprehensive, so I have hope.

okket 9y ago
Of course, we individuals can find meaning and purpose in our life. Through family, creativity, social bonds, etc. But I am thinking about life as the whole humanity, the whole nature. I do not think individual purpose answers the questions why life or humans should exist.
- loup-vaillant 9y ago
  > I do not think individual purpose answers the questions why life or humans should exist. What we should do is defined by what we want. Most of us want life and humans to continue to exist. Therefore they should. It's that simple.
yters 9y ago
Once you are dead you won't enjoy it and you won't care, so there is no reason to prefer life to death by that criterion.

dogma1138 9y ago

Life might be nothing more than the most efficient way to hydrate carbon (entropy ftw). Intelligent life is so far subjectively the most amazing thing that has happened in this universe. We are the only intelligent species on our planet, our planet is the only place where we know for sure life exists in our solar system. Based on our limited observations we are also the only intelligent beings in our galaxy at least at this time period. While intelligent life may have no interensic meaning we have the capacity to give our life and the life of future generations meaning, this trait is quite likely the result of natural selection. We study history, cherish our past, honor our heroes and plan for a better future and this is a universal trait that we as a species share. Saying that life has no meaning is a pointless argument there is nothing to benefit from making this assumption, in fact you lose everything.