6 ms·

How is this just happening now? Java is super popular in the open source and academic communities, but C# has been ahead of them since its start with an open sp

by nxc18 9y ago

How is this just happening now? Java is super popular in the open source and academic communities, but C# has been ahead of them since its start with an open specification, open implementations, and for the past few years, a full-throttle open source effort. What's going on?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
chrisseaton 9y ago
Java had an open specification (if you mean freely available and accepting contributions), open implementations, and allowed open-source contributions, for years before C# did - I don't know what you're talking about. This post is just about JavaEE - a set of libraries for Java - being moved to GitHub.
lovelearning 9y ago
All of this used to be on a (very very slow horrible) repository site called "java.net". They moved everything to GitHub now. Similar to MS shutting down CodePlex and moving to GitHub.
bad_user 9y ago
On C# having had an incomplete ECMA specification always lagging behind and source code made available under an obscure, non-open-source, legally tainting license acting as a boobytrap for anything commercial DOES NOT count as open. Even now they are being disingenuous about license changes, witness for example the leadership of this project changing license from Apache 2.0 to MIT and being obtuse about the licensing of patents or about reasoning, not explaining clearly the drawbacks of the change: https://github.com/Microsoft/visualfsharp/issues/3440 https://github.com/Microsoft/visualfsharp/issues/3440 OpenJDK happened on May 8, 2007, that's 10 years ago and you've got companies like Red Hat and IBM collaborating on it. By comparison .NET Core was released 2016, so that's 9 years later. And the JCP might be a farce as far as standardisation efforts are concerned, but at least you've got multiple companies participating. I'm replying this because I'm getting tired of Microsoft's marketing campaigns on this forum. UPDATE: Btw I actually applaud Microsoft's open sourcing efforts, I see myself using .NET in the future and I'm actively using Visual Studio Code and TypeScript at the moment. They've got fine people there working on dev tools, they always had. But then I also see them engaging in what's basically racketeering, threatening Android phone makers with patents (i.e. if you can't innovate, litigate), having potential for becoming one of the largest patent trolls ever. And I also see them breaking user privacy in Windows 10. Therefore my view of them is balanced, as a large organization the left hand doesn't know what the right does, etc. I cannot love them and even though I may have forgiven them for their past attacks on Linux and the open web, I can't forget their past that easily. And before you mention Google, Apple, Facebook, or other media darlings, check my history to see that I'm consistently ranting about all of them and the malevolence of one does not excuse the rest. What I'm saying is that "Microsoft changed" messages make me feel nausea because it's been a clear marketing campaign and people fell for it. Let their actions speak, applaud and reward them when they do good, but don't put them on a pedestal and don't do marketing for them without getting paid for it.
- staticelf 9y ago
  > I'm replying this because I'm getting tired of Microsoft's marketing campaigns on this forum. I just think you're simply underestimating how many people actually like .net and spreads the love by free will. :)
  - liesmarketing 9y ago
    they probably shouldn't lie in such transparent ways, then
    - hele7 9y ago
      Do you have sufficient proof to back your argument? Further, can you prove that they lie any more than others?
- hele7 9y ago
  > OpenJDK happened on May 8, 2007, that's 10 years ago and you've got companies like Red Hat and IBM collaborating on it. By comparison .NET Core was released 2016, so that's 9 years later. You're comparing unequal things. OpenJDK was a community effort, while .NET Core is maintained primarily by Microsoft themselves. The correct comparison would be to .NET's community based alternative, which is Mono. Mono in turn had it's initial release in June 30, 2004, which is _13 years ago_, and 3 years before OpenJDK itself. Further, note that Oracle only open sourced Java a year after Microsoft did .NET Core. One might even argue that Oracle only did so _because_ of .NET Core. I'll note that I'm replying because I'm getting tired of Oracle's marketing campaigns on this forum.
  - dtech 9y ago
    > You're comparing unequal things. OpenJDK was a community effort > The correct comparison would be to .NET's community based alternative, which is Mono. This is disingenuous at best. OpenJDK was started with a huge codebase from the existing Sun JDK at the time, similar to how .Net core was started with with a Microsoft codebase. Meanwhile Mono had to be written from scratch and was a far cry from being somewhat compatible for years after it started (e.g. capable of running a Visual Studio compiled .NET GUI program) > Further, note that Oracle only open sourced Java a year after Microsoft did .NET Core I'm not sure what you mean by "open source Java" in this context. The Java Community Process was started in 1998, and as said OpenJDK started in 2007. Java EE being open sourced like now would be much more comparable to Microsoft releasing something like Windows Presentation Foundation as open source, as it's a oft-used part of .NET but not part of the language per se.
runako 9y ago
> Java is super popular in the open source and academic communities Don't forget the business community. To a first order approximation, most programmers who get paid to write code work in either C#/.NET or Java. Everything else is a relatively small minority of paid development work.
- rbanffy 9y ago
  Java is the 21st century COBOL. And no, I mean it as a compliment. It takes a colossal amount of effort to become a de facto standard.
  - astrodust 9y ago
    Note to Java kids today: When you're 60 your skills will be in demand. Don't get too rusty!
g051051 9y ago
You're mistaking Microsoft's purely reactive strategy to something like real planning and commitment to open source. MSFT has been pushing into that area (sort of) recently because they kept getting their lunch stolen by all of the open source technologies out there. Do you think it was anything but the most incredible terror and desperation that drove them to add a Linux subsystem to Windows? To open source their "crown jewel" of .NET? To support Linux on Azure? To make Visual Studio almost entirely free? To adopt Electron as the base for VS Code? To ditch TFS for GitHub? Edit: Corrected to be more precise Chromium vs. Electron.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  As much as I like .NET, the truth is that they are loosing mindshare among new generations. "Microsoft’s Open Source Developer Journey" https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Visual-Studio/Live-2017/Keynote https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Visual-Studio/Live-2017/Key...
  - holydude 9y ago
    They are but they are trying to adapt. .NET core is an extremely aggressive way for them to attract the new generation. It's funny because the new generations still use Windows to develop on and Linux to deploy to and no one is denying this. But Microsoft somehow is accepting this shift and is trying to bring its stack on Linux and also Linux on Windows. I think Microsoft is smart,they really realized unlike Oracle and others that sometimes you cannot people force to use or do whatever you think is the best (looking at you Oracle,IBM,Apple) and literally giving people what they want is the best thing you can do to turn the tides.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Yes, Microsoft is pulling an IBM, because they are fully aware that if they don't change, long term it will make them suffer really bad.
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    Interestingly, I'm seeing VS Code alot these days amongst "new generation" developers.
ghrifter 9y ago
Are you still in school, new to the industry, or both?

by nxc18 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

chrisseaton 9y ago

Java had an open specification (if you mean freely available and accepting contributions), open implementations, and allowed open-source contributions, for years before C# did - I don't know what you're talking about. This post is just about JavaEE - a set of libraries for Java - being moved to GitHub.

lovelearning 9y ago

All of this used to be on a (very very slow horrible) repository site called "java.net". They moved everything to GitHub now. Similar to MS shutting down CodePlex and moving to GitHub.

bad_user 9y ago

On C# having had an incomplete ECMA specification always lagging behind and source code made available under an obscure, non-open-source, legally tainting license acting as a boobytrap for anything commercial DOES NOT count as open. Even now they are being disingenuous about license changes, witness for example the leadership of this project changing license from Apache 2.0 to MIT and being obtuse about the licensing of patents or about reasoning, not explaining clearly the drawbacks of the change: https://github.com/Microsoft/visualfsharp/issues/3440 https://github.com/Microsoft/visualfsharp/issues/3440 OpenJDK happened on May 8, 2007, that's 10 years ago and you've got companies like Red Hat and IBM collaborating on it. By comparison .NET Core was released 2016, so that's 9 years later. And the JCP might be a farce as far as standardisation efforts are concerned, but at least you've got multiple companies participating. I'm replying this because I'm getting tired of Microsoft's marketing campaigns on this forum. UPDATE: Btw I actually applaud Microsoft's open sourcing efforts, I see myself using .NET in the future and I'm actively using Visual Studio Code and TypeScript at the moment. They've got fine people there working on dev tools, they always had. But then I also see them engaging in what's basically racketeering, threatening Android phone makers with patents (i.e. if you can't innovate, litigate), having potential for becoming one of the largest patent trolls ever. And I also see them breaking user privacy in Windows 10. Therefore my view of them is balanced, as a large organization the left hand doesn't know what the right does, etc. I cannot love them and even though I may have forgiven them for their past attacks on Linux and the open web, I can't forget their past that easily. And before you mention Google, Apple, Facebook, or other media darlings, check my history to see that I'm consistently ranting about all of them and the malevolence of one does not excuse the rest. What I'm saying is that "Microsoft changed" messages make me feel nausea because it's been a clear marketing campaign and people fell for it. Let their actions speak, applaud and reward them when they do good, but don't put them on a pedestal and don't do marketing for them without getting paid for it.

staticelf 9y ago
> I'm replying this because I'm getting tired of Microsoft's marketing campaigns on this forum. I just think you're simply underestimating how many people actually like .net and spreads the love by free will. :)
- liesmarketing 9y ago
  they probably shouldn't lie in such transparent ways, then
  - hele7 9y ago
    Do you have sufficient proof to back your argument? Further, can you prove that they lie any more than others?
hele7 9y ago
> OpenJDK happened on May 8, 2007, that's 10 years ago and you've got companies like Red Hat and IBM collaborating on it. By comparison .NET Core was released 2016, so that's 9 years later. You're comparing unequal things. OpenJDK was a community effort, while .NET Core is maintained primarily by Microsoft themselves. The correct comparison would be to .NET's community based alternative, which is Mono. Mono in turn had it's initial release in June 30, 2004, which is _13 years ago_, and 3 years before OpenJDK itself. Further, note that Oracle only open sourced Java a year after Microsoft did .NET Core. One might even argue that Oracle only did so _because_ of .NET Core. I'll note that I'm replying because I'm getting tired of Oracle's marketing campaigns on this forum.
- dtech 9y ago
  > You're comparing unequal things. OpenJDK was a community effort > The correct comparison would be to .NET's community based alternative, which is Mono. This is disingenuous at best. OpenJDK was started with a huge codebase from the existing Sun JDK at the time, similar to how .Net core was started with with a Microsoft codebase. Meanwhile Mono had to be written from scratch and was a far cry from being somewhat compatible for years after it started (e.g. capable of running a Visual Studio compiled .NET GUI program) > Further, note that Oracle only open sourced Java a year after Microsoft did .NET Core I'm not sure what you mean by "open source Java" in this context. The Java Community Process was started in 1998, and as said OpenJDK started in 2007. Java EE being open sourced like now would be much more comparable to Microsoft releasing something like Windows Presentation Foundation as open source, as it's a oft-used part of .NET but not part of the language per se.

runako 9y ago

> Java is super popular in the open source and academic communities Don't forget the business community. To a first order approximation, most programmers who get paid to write code work in either C#/.NET or Java. Everything else is a relatively small minority of paid development work.

rbanffy 9y ago
Java is the 21st century COBOL. And no, I mean it as a compliment. It takes a colossal amount of effort to become a de facto standard.
- astrodust 9y ago
  Note to Java kids today: When you're 60 your skills will be in demand. Don't get too rusty!

g051051 9y ago

You're mistaking Microsoft's purely reactive strategy to something like real planning and commitment to open source. MSFT has been pushing into that area (sort of) recently because they kept getting their lunch stolen by all of the open source technologies out there. Do you think it was anything but the most incredible terror and desperation that drove them to add a Linux subsystem to Windows? To open source their "crown jewel" of .NET? To support Linux on Azure? To make Visual Studio almost entirely free? To adopt Electron as the base for VS Code? To ditch TFS for GitHub? Edit: Corrected to be more precise Chromium vs. Electron.

pjmlp 9y ago
As much as I like .NET, the truth is that they are loosing mindshare among new generations. "Microsoft’s Open Source Developer Journey" https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Visual-Studio/Live-2017/Keynote https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Visual-Studio/Live-2017/Key...
- holydude 9y ago
  They are but they are trying to adapt. .NET core is an extremely aggressive way for them to attract the new generation. It's funny because the new generations still use Windows to develop on and Linux to deploy to and no one is denying this. But Microsoft somehow is accepting this shift and is trying to bring its stack on Linux and also Linux on Windows. I think Microsoft is smart,they really realized unlike Oracle and others that sometimes you cannot people force to use or do whatever you think is the best (looking at you Oracle,IBM,Apple) and literally giving people what they want is the best thing you can do to turn the tides.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Yes, Microsoft is pulling an IBM, because they are fully aware that if they don't change, long term it will make them suffer really bad.
- bdcravens 9y ago
  Interestingly, I'm seeing VS Code alot these days amongst "new generation" developers.

ghrifter 9y ago

Are you still in school, new to the industry, or both?