7 ms·

My whole life I was a boredom-driven person. This means that, for every productive action I'm taking, I have to "roll a morale check" and I fail that one more

My whole life I was a boredom-driven person. This means that, for every productive action I'm taking, I have to "roll a morale check" and I fail that one more often than not, and stop doing whatever I wanted to accomplish. I consider myself talented but my output thus is inherently constrained. It was very shocking for me to discover that many many people don't work like that: instead they need to roll a check to ever stop working, otherwise they don't, eventually burning out (but in process, earning e.g. good grades which was always unreachable to me).

acrynx 9y ago
It's the same with me and this might be the first time I notice someone else actually talking about it and assessing their situation so well, so thanks for that. Do you think that it's just a normal degree of variation found in different people? In the past I've occasionally been wondering if there is something wrong with my health that drains my motivation, or if actually I'm just lazy, or care too little about what i can give to other people, or whatever. At that time it has also caused problems at work for me and kept my self-esteem low for quite some time. Since then I have been a lot better and I'd say it's fine now. But I still wonder about what causes such wildly differing forms of motivation in different people.
- nolok 9y ago
  Did/do you by any chance have what I can only describe as a "fear of failure / of being ashamed of your result" ? I infer that from your "low self esteem" remark. I used to be very very similar, and with some help I identified that it was a combination of people around me expecting me to succeed a lot more than others, which lead to a fear of failing. Which then slowly creeped into a lot of aspect of my life. I really caught on it and decided to do something about it when it started going against what I actually wanted, making me decline events I wanted to get into and had the motivation but my brain just wouldn't let me hop in.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    I, for one, never have fear of failure. What I have is the opposite. In seconds I can think of this grandiose accomplishment in all its beauty if it was finished, and then I'm confronted with a white slate and tedium of doing even first steps in that direction. What discourages me from smaller tasks is impossibility of failure. Why do a barely challenging exercise if i'm not the first to do it and not the best at that?
    - nolok 9y ago
      I'm not sure I'm on the same spectrum as you, but I can recognize the "boring first steps stopping me from going further even though I can see the solution to 99% of the thing and it would be awesome". That's why it's nearly impossible for me to make a project in modern javascript or anything like it with a ton of setup, but give me golang and it lets me just start hacking at the "awesome steps" and suddenly I'm building stuff.
      - thriftwy 9y ago
        I can relate to that! I remember I could not start any Windows programming because MSVC offered pages and pages of stuff as a Windows "Hello World" and I just could not figure what is this stuff for, and could not proceed without understanding. I only got with it when I've learned some raw WinAPI with message breakers and stuff, but all and all fitting a program in one source file.
    - vijay_nair 9y ago
      Why do a barely challenging exercise if i'm not the first to do it and not the best at that? Exactly! My motivation primarily stems from the self-esteem boost I get from doing meaningful work that’s exclusive to me. But to do the experiments and research required to get to the exclusive domain I need to pass through the tedium of mundane jobs to pay the bills, learn the technology etc. I can find the motivation to do the tedium for minutes, but not for hours like others seem to be able to.
      - 9y ago
- tcmb 9y ago
  > In the past > At that time > Since then Can you point to anything that has caused this change for you? I can identify myself with OP's description as well and would be happy about any ideas how to address it.
  - acrynx 9y ago
    I belive so. See my reply to nolok
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  Laziness does not exists in psychology.
- oculusthrift 9y ago
  There are different personality traits. Out of the big five, it may indicate you have moderate or low conscientiousness. people who are highly conscientious tend to be extremely anguished when they are not being productive
vijay_nair 9y ago
I’m the exact same way; were you able to find a workaround? Does our situation lie within the realm of ADD?
- thriftwy 9y ago
  My workaround is to do things that I like and put pressure on myself when things get slow. However I still have a long list of side projects that I should do one day (or even worse, return to them one day).
  - vijay_nair 9y ago
    I still have a long list of side projects that I should do one day I know the feeling, it just compounds the problem: https://twitter.com/vjk2005/status/753567329380732928 https://twitter.com/vjk2005/status/753567329380732928
- nolok 9y ago
  Best solution I have for you that work both as an "immediate fix" and a long term re-training is work in duo. I hated the very idea of someone sitting with me at the computer and coding together, I mean that's stupid right ? And I'm going to be super slow compared to usual, and will have to explain stuff, ... But even if you're only going at 80% of your usual speed, you're going. 100% speed is useless if you stop after 5 minutes. Consider telling the other person about your focus issue, so they don't let you play around too much. With time, I've seen plenty of other great sides and bonuses in pair programming, but that one alone has been a god send. And after a while you get used to the rythm and get better at coding alone without stopping too.
  - vijay_nair 9y ago
    I’d prefer not having to depend on someone because my schedule eventually becomes intertwined with theirs and it leads to all kinds of conflicts and complications. It sucks for me that you found it so effective, because I’m missing out on a potential solution[1]. [1] What has been a temporary solution is vasodilation through garlic-driven TRPA1 activation. Sometimes I get so down I wonder what is the point of life when I’m going to die in about 1600 weeks and me and all of my work is going to be forgotten; I pop in 70 to 120 garlic cloves (very hard to chew, they sting) but it does seem to work (could be placebo although the vasodilation does actually work as I get incredibly horny after). Since garlic is hard to chew I have my eyes on chocolate flavonols (chocamine) that does the same vasodilation effect. Still looking for better alternatives, if I can find them.
nolok 9y ago
Thank you for describing it better than I could put into words. And while it seems great at first "oh people like this don't burn out, don't stress out, they're fine !", the actual truth is that when you look back you see plenty of things you could have done that would have been awesome, or made you ton of money, or been unique, ... But you didn't. And you didn't do anything else instead. You just ... kind of go along. I believe being above average talented is actually a detriment to getting better on that front, as it means you can cruise through life without much pressure of work and money.
- amygdyl 9y ago
  You spend your life having the idea reinforced that the fact that you can perform better than others gives you a advantage that is quickly exaggerated to mean that you think you can overcome hindsight deficit and common but expensive errors.
  - noir_lord 9y ago
    Picasso (I think) said "when inspiration turns up it better find you working".
- Xoros 9y ago
  It's a problem when you are "gifted" in your early age. I never had to work at all during school to have good grades. So I didn't. When reality finally checked in, I didn't have working routines or techniques. I still miss some of them, and there's not a day than I look back at my career thinking I could have done muuuuch better.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - nolok 9y ago
    I can 100% relate. And sadly getting the people around you to understand is not easy at all. How do you tell the people around you that telling you you're good/talented/gifted, and acting like you are by default, is hurting you. That when there is any kind of challenge to do, "yeah it's hard but I'm sure nolok can do it" being the go to expected comment has long term effects. Even in my current adult situation, my friends answer when we talk about it goes something like "oh yeah poor you, not having to kill yourself working all week because you can do it in a few hours, and then being forced to relax and not do work stuff for days ! I would cry for you, if I didn't have to go back to work for my daily 6 hours shift for half your salary." And I can't even say I don't get why they don't understand it, I totally do, but it hurts nonetheless. The only ones who truly know how much it gets to me are my girlfriend and close family (parents, brother, ...), and after a while you feel like you're complaining about nothing while others have real issues.
have_faith 9y ago
A book that I read that described this very well for me: Scattered Minds: The Origins and Healing of Attention Deficit Disorder by Gabor Mate. Would highly recommend anyone to read. Revealed a lot about what motivates me. It covers things like only being able to focus on something you find interesting, and doing so for crazy amounts of time (Hyperfocus), while being unable to focus on a very simple task that is of no interest for even a moment. Edit: I have a deadline in 5 hours time and I'm checking HN. I only work well under pressure...
- jrs235 9y ago
  I need to check out that book. >I only work well under pressure. Made me chuckle. I'm similar. But it's more like: I only work under pressure. I'm not so sure about the quality, whether it's well or not. ;)
jonathanstrange 9y ago
I believe this boredom or lack of strong motivation occurs when you don't get the flow effect [1] from your work, which happened to me during my studies and sadly also as part of some of my current work in Academia. Once I started writing novels, I realized that I can quickly 'get into the flow', or however psychologists call that, and the activity is deeply satisfying over long period of time. The same happens to me when I program or make music. Unfortunately, it's currently not realistic for me to expect to be able to make a living from any of these hobbies. I don't think that's very uncommon, though, and there is no need to worry or be shocked about it. Some people work primarily to earn money and there's nothing wrong with that, even though you're apparently not supposed to state that simple truth in job interviews. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
- archagon 9y ago
  I wonder: as a programmer, how do you get into a flow state when you're not doing active coding — e.g., when you're trying to learn new concepts, parsing research, or designing algorithms or data structures? That's what I have the most trouble with. Once I get past the hurdle everything is just gravy, but staring at the same paper or whiteboard for a week and trying to grok the darn thing is emotionally draining. I can only move forward when my mind happens to make those missing connections, which is not something I can force.
  - _asummers 9y ago
    I find REPL driven development to be really helpful here. You play around with toys til you get your bearings, then you sit down for real to do the task. The instant feedback from the REPL causes me to not get sidetracked nearly as easily. YMMV, of course.
    - taway_1212 9y ago
      For languages/environments where REPL is not available, it can be helpful to create a setup where you get an almost instantaneous feedback from your changes. Nothing kills flow like having to wait 10 seconds every time you change a line of code and want to see the result. For the parent poster: I think a good way to tackle learning new stuff is to break it do it in small increments at a time. Ex. if learning graphics programming, start with trying to open up a blank open gl window, then try displaying a single triangle etc. If the tasks proves to be more complex or requires going on a tangent, break that down into goals as well. The point is to always have something on your plate that is small-ish and feels achievable.
alexandercrohde 9y ago
So I'm 31, and I've had what you describe on-and-off for a long time. However, I don't have it for things I actually enjoy doing (e.g. solving some puzzle, playing a video game, helping a person, articulating how political systems would need to change to drive progress) For myself, I always blamed the system. The fact is, I don't think it's fair to take a primate, put it in front of a screen all day, and expect it to want to type constantly and drag jira tickets. At least not this primate. A lot of the time my job has felt like defusing my manager's daddy issues rather than improving the world. And I think surrendering to the idea that that was inevitable was crushing to me. So I quit. Once I realized the world wouldn't collapse if I broke out of the system (e.g. you could quit, you could move to malaysia and coast, etc etc) I realized this was prison was entirely in my head. I realized most rich people I knew weren't really happy, and most jobs are dysfunctional wealth-making machines for those at the top. Right now, I'm researching whether there is a possible connection between environmental chemicals and the skyrocketing illnesses (ADD, allergies, asthma, etc) for a youtube channel. Will I go back to work? Not sure. But I've decided, if push comes to shove, I'd rather be poor than surrender to feeling like a pawn in a system I do not respect.
vorpalhex 9y ago
This used to be an issue I struggled with. I found sprinting towards small, but functional deadlines was effective. This way even if I put down a project for a few months and then came back, it was in an ok place to pick back up again and sprint some more on. I also found that being able to complete one small task and then switch gears on the project kept me more entertained. Also working with a good coding partner can be helpful, but that takes it's own time to setup and organize.
Allower 9y ago
>This means that, for every productive action I'm taking, I have to "roll a morale check" and I fail that one more often than not, and stop doing whatever I wanted to accomplish. I consider myself talented but my output thus is inherently constrained. 'Inherently constrained' - no, sounds like burnout. i do the same thing, the only reason i dont have the energy/desire/morale to work on my own projects is because my job absorbs 110% of it.
hammock 9y ago
What does roll a check mean?
- Slaul 9y ago
  It's a term from role playing games (pen and paper or digital). It means that in order to do some task X, you need to roll 1 or more dice and have the sum total of the result of the dice roll be greater than some arbitrary requirement.
rickmode 9y ago
I totally get this. I finally got an ADHD diagnosis as an adult and the mild stimulants they prescribe help me plow through work that would otherwise be literally too boring for me to force myself though. On the flip side, these same mild stimulants may be helping me get to the burn out phase. Heh. The net is that taking the stimulants while feeling a lot of stress or anxiety is not a good plan, and something I have to watch out for. So when I'm stressed out, I stay way from the stimulants -- I fall back to coffee and Diet Coke.

acrynx 9y ago

It's the same with me and this might be the first time I notice someone else actually talking about it and assessing their situation so well, so thanks for that. Do you think that it's just a normal degree of variation found in different people? In the past I've occasionally been wondering if there is something wrong with my health that drains my motivation, or if actually I'm just lazy, or care too little about what i can give to other people, or whatever. At that time it has also caused problems at work for me and kept my self-esteem low for quite some time. Since then I have been a lot better and I'd say it's fine now. But I still wonder about what causes such wildly differing forms of motivation in different people.

nolok 9y ago
Did/do you by any chance have what I can only describe as a "fear of failure / of being ashamed of your result" ? I infer that from your "low self esteem" remark. I used to be very very similar, and with some help I identified that it was a combination of people around me expecting me to succeed a lot more than others, which lead to a fear of failing. Which then slowly creeped into a lot of aspect of my life. I really caught on it and decided to do something about it when it started going against what I actually wanted, making me decline events I wanted to get into and had the motivation but my brain just wouldn't let me hop in.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  I, for one, never have fear of failure. What I have is the opposite. In seconds I can think of this grandiose accomplishment in all its beauty if it was finished, and then I'm confronted with a white slate and tedium of doing even first steps in that direction. What discourages me from smaller tasks is impossibility of failure. Why do a barely challenging exercise if i'm not the first to do it and not the best at that?
  - nolok 9y ago
    I'm not sure I'm on the same spectrum as you, but I can recognize the "boring first steps stopping me from going further even though I can see the solution to 99% of the thing and it would be awesome". That's why it's nearly impossible for me to make a project in modern javascript or anything like it with a ton of setup, but give me golang and it lets me just start hacking at the "awesome steps" and suddenly I'm building stuff.
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      I can relate to that! I remember I could not start any Windows programming because MSVC offered pages and pages of stuff as a Windows "Hello World" and I just could not figure what is this stuff for, and could not proceed without understanding. I only got with it when I've learned some raw WinAPI with message breakers and stuff, but all and all fitting a program in one source file.
  - vijay_nair 9y ago
    Why do a barely challenging exercise if i'm not the first to do it and not the best at that? Exactly! My motivation primarily stems from the self-esteem boost I get from doing meaningful work that’s exclusive to me. But to do the experiments and research required to get to the exclusive domain I need to pass through the tedium of mundane jobs to pay the bills, learn the technology etc. I can find the motivation to do the tedium for minutes, but not for hours like others seem to be able to.
    - 9y ago
tcmb 9y ago
> In the past > At that time > Since then Can you point to anything that has caused this change for you? I can identify myself with OP's description as well and would be happy about any ideas how to address it.
- acrynx 9y ago
  I belive so. See my reply to nolok
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
Laziness does not exists in psychology.
oculusthrift 9y ago
There are different personality traits. Out of the big five, it may indicate you have moderate or low conscientiousness. people who are highly conscientious tend to be extremely anguished when they are not being productive

vijay_nair 9y ago

I’m the exact same way; were you able to find a workaround? Does our situation lie within the realm of ADD?

thriftwy 9y ago
My workaround is to do things that I like and put pressure on myself when things get slow. However I still have a long list of side projects that I should do one day (or even worse, return to them one day).
- vijay_nair 9y ago
  I still have a long list of side projects that I should do one day I know the feeling, it just compounds the problem: https://twitter.com/vjk2005/status/753567329380732928 https://twitter.com/vjk2005/status/753567329380732928
nolok 9y ago
Best solution I have for you that work both as an "immediate fix" and a long term re-training is work in duo. I hated the very idea of someone sitting with me at the computer and coding together, I mean that's stupid right ? And I'm going to be super slow compared to usual, and will have to explain stuff, ... But even if you're only going at 80% of your usual speed, you're going. 100% speed is useless if you stop after 5 minutes. Consider telling the other person about your focus issue, so they don't let you play around too much. With time, I've seen plenty of other great sides and bonuses in pair programming, but that one alone has been a god send. And after a while you get used to the rythm and get better at coding alone without stopping too.
- vijay_nair 9y ago
  I’d prefer not having to depend on someone because my schedule eventually becomes intertwined with theirs and it leads to all kinds of conflicts and complications. It sucks for me that you found it so effective, because I’m missing out on a potential solution[1]. [1] What has been a temporary solution is vasodilation through garlic-driven TRPA1 activation. Sometimes I get so down I wonder what is the point of life when I’m going to die in about 1600 weeks and me and all of my work is going to be forgotten; I pop in 70 to 120 garlic cloves (very hard to chew, they sting) but it does seem to work (could be placebo although the vasodilation does actually work as I get incredibly horny after). Since garlic is hard to chew I have my eyes on chocolate flavonols (chocamine) that does the same vasodilation effect. Still looking for better alternatives, if I can find them.

nolok 9y ago

Thank you for describing it better than I could put into words. And while it seems great at first "oh people like this don't burn out, don't stress out, they're fine !", the actual truth is that when you look back you see plenty of things you could have done that would have been awesome, or made you ton of money, or been unique, ... But you didn't. And you didn't do anything else instead. You just ... kind of go along. I believe being above average talented is actually a detriment to getting better on that front, as it means you can cruise through life without much pressure of work and money.

amygdyl 9y ago
You spend your life having the idea reinforced that the fact that you can perform better than others gives you a advantage that is quickly exaggerated to mean that you think you can overcome hindsight deficit and common but expensive errors.
- noir_lord 9y ago
  Picasso (I think) said "when inspiration turns up it better find you working".
Xoros 9y ago
It's a problem when you are "gifted" in your early age. I never had to work at all during school to have good grades. So I didn't. When reality finally checked in, I didn't have working routines or techniques. I still miss some of them, and there's not a day than I look back at my career thinking I could have done muuuuch better.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- nolok 9y ago
  I can 100% relate. And sadly getting the people around you to understand is not easy at all. How do you tell the people around you that telling you you're good/talented/gifted, and acting like you are by default, is hurting you. That when there is any kind of challenge to do, "yeah it's hard but I'm sure nolok can do it" being the go to expected comment has long term effects. Even in my current adult situation, my friends answer when we talk about it goes something like "oh yeah poor you, not having to kill yourself working all week because you can do it in a few hours, and then being forced to relax and not do work stuff for days ! I would cry for you, if I didn't have to go back to work for my daily 6 hours shift for half your salary." And I can't even say I don't get why they don't understand it, I totally do, but it hurts nonetheless. The only ones who truly know how much it gets to me are my girlfriend and close family (parents, brother, ...), and after a while you feel like you're complaining about nothing while others have real issues.

have_faith 9y ago

A book that I read that described this very well for me: Scattered Minds: The Origins and Healing of Attention Deficit Disorder by Gabor Mate. Would highly recommend anyone to read. Revealed a lot about what motivates me. It covers things like only being able to focus on something you find interesting, and doing so for crazy amounts of time (Hyperfocus), while being unable to focus on a very simple task that is of no interest for even a moment. Edit: I have a deadline in 5 hours time and I'm checking HN. I only work well under pressure...

jrs235 9y ago
I need to check out that book. >I only work well under pressure. Made me chuckle. I'm similar. But it's more like: I only work under pressure. I'm not so sure about the quality, whether it's well or not. ;)

jonathanstrange 9y ago

I believe this boredom or lack of strong motivation occurs when you don't get the flow effect [1] from your work, which happened to me during my studies and sadly also as part of some of my current work in Academia. Once I started writing novels, I realized that I can quickly 'get into the flow', or however psychologists call that, and the activity is deeply satisfying over long period of time. The same happens to me when I program or make music. Unfortunately, it's currently not realistic for me to expect to be able to make a living from any of these hobbies. I don't think that's very uncommon, though, and there is no need to worry or be shocked about it. Some people work primarily to earn money and there's nothing wrong with that, even though you're apparently not supposed to state that simple truth in job interviews. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

archagon 9y ago
I wonder: as a programmer, how do you get into a flow state when you're not doing active coding — e.g., when you're trying to learn new concepts, parsing research, or designing algorithms or data structures? That's what I have the most trouble with. Once I get past the hurdle everything is just gravy, but staring at the same paper or whiteboard for a week and trying to grok the darn thing is emotionally draining. I can only move forward when my mind happens to make those missing connections, which is not something I can force.
- _asummers 9y ago
  I find REPL driven development to be really helpful here. You play around with toys til you get your bearings, then you sit down for real to do the task. The instant feedback from the REPL causes me to not get sidetracked nearly as easily. YMMV, of course.
  - taway_1212 9y ago
    For languages/environments where REPL is not available, it can be helpful to create a setup where you get an almost instantaneous feedback from your changes. Nothing kills flow like having to wait 10 seconds every time you change a line of code and want to see the result. For the parent poster: I think a good way to tackle learning new stuff is to break it do it in small increments at a time. Ex. if learning graphics programming, start with trying to open up a blank open gl window, then try displaying a single triangle etc. If the tasks proves to be more complex or requires going on a tangent, break that down into goals as well. The point is to always have something on your plate that is small-ish and feels achievable.

alexandercrohde 9y ago

So I'm 31, and I've had what you describe on-and-off for a long time. However, I don't have it for things I actually enjoy doing (e.g. solving some puzzle, playing a video game, helping a person, articulating how political systems would need to change to drive progress) For myself, I always blamed the system. The fact is, I don't think it's fair to take a primate, put it in front of a screen all day, and expect it to want to type constantly and drag jira tickets. At least not this primate. A lot of the time my job has felt like defusing my manager's daddy issues rather than improving the world. And I think surrendering to the idea that that was inevitable was crushing to me. So I quit. Once I realized the world wouldn't collapse if I broke out of the system (e.g. you could quit, you could move to malaysia and coast, etc etc) I realized this was prison was entirely in my head. I realized most rich people I knew weren't really happy, and most jobs are dysfunctional wealth-making machines for those at the top. Right now, I'm researching whether there is a possible connection between environmental chemicals and the skyrocketing illnesses (ADD, allergies, asthma, etc) for a youtube channel. Will I go back to work? Not sure. But I've decided, if push comes to shove, I'd rather be poor than surrender to feeling like a pawn in a system I do not respect.

vorpalhex 9y ago

This used to be an issue I struggled with. I found sprinting towards small, but functional deadlines was effective. This way even if I put down a project for a few months and then came back, it was in an ok place to pick back up again and sprint some more on. I also found that being able to complete one small task and then switch gears on the project kept me more entertained. Also working with a good coding partner can be helpful, but that takes it's own time to setup and organize.

Allower 9y ago

>This means that, for every productive action I'm taking, I have to "roll a morale check" and I fail that one more often than not, and stop doing whatever I wanted to accomplish. I consider myself talented but my output thus is inherently constrained. 'Inherently constrained' - no, sounds like burnout. i do the same thing, the only reason i dont have the energy/desire/morale to work on my own projects is because my job absorbs 110% of it.

hammock 9y ago

What does roll a check mean?

Slaul 9y ago
It's a term from role playing games (pen and paper or digital). It means that in order to do some task X, you need to roll 1 or more dice and have the sum total of the result of the dice roll be greater than some arbitrary requirement.

rickmode 9y ago

I totally get this. I finally got an ADHD diagnosis as an adult and the mild stimulants they prescribe help me plow through work that would otherwise be literally too boring for me to force myself though. On the flip side, these same mild stimulants may be helping me get to the burn out phase. Heh. The net is that taking the stimulants while feeling a lot of stress or anxiety is not a good plan, and something I have to watch out for. So when I'm stressed out, I stay way from the stimulants -- I fall back to coffee and Diet Coke.