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In a vacuum, yes -- but societies can enter modalities where returns to labor are very low, relative to capital or real property. This was a phenomenon known to

In a vacuum, yes -- but societies can enter modalities where returns to labor are very low, relative to capital or real property. This was a phenomenon known to Smith in the 1770s. There are simply not enough alternatives to go around -- and you end up with societies where there is a massive (and unstable) gap between rich and poor. If a position does not pay well enough for someone to have a family and raise and educate two or three children, it can be said not to pay for itself: which is to say, not to pay for its renewal from generation to generation. This is the real standard by which we must consider the wages paid to those positions, like waiters and teachers and janitors, which are perennial.

Chris2048 9y ago
> This is the real standard.. Why is it? A job is better than welfare, therefore it has value. The requirement that jobs are 'renewable' is only required of the average job, not every job.
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  It's worth asking what it means for it to be required by the average job. Being renewable doesn't seem to admit of a lot of variation -- things are or aren't (but we could discuss something more formal for this and that would affect the remaining analysis). Accepting the idea that renewability is either slightly more than 1.0 or slightly less, if the "average job" is renewable it suggests most of the common jobs have to be renewable in practice. We could argue this in another way, which is to say that the average "career life course" or let's just say "life course" has to be renewable. This is where we encounter the idea that people should be setting themselves up for promotions -- but most people don't get promotions. It's not how life works. Promotions don't address the concern for the average life course.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    The job dynamic are likely a predator-prey style relationship of supply vs demand. The main features of janitorial work is few barriers to entry. There is fair demand, but there is plentiful supply which is why it is relatively low paid. If Janitors could only replace Janitors, then being "non-renewable" would reduce supply, increasing wage, and maintaining balance. In reality, the main feature of Janitorial work is most people otherwise lacking qualifications can do it; i.e. anyone. So it's not true that the renewability of janitorial work has a direct affect on supply. Instead, it depends on overall supply of unskilled labour.
    - solidsnack9000 9y ago
      Isn't the question one of the renewability of unskilled labor? Where does the unskilled labor come from?
    - solidsnack9000 9y ago
      > The job dynamic are likely a predator-prey style relationship of supply vs demand. I thought about this for a while after you wrote it. In a stable setting, where there is not a large and pre-existing supply of prey, prey animals tend to have large broods. Many off their offspring are preyed upon or otherwise unable to reproduce, but just enough make it in each generation and likewise manage to have large broods. This is not a behaviour that seems plausible with modern people. The amount of time required to educate someone prior to their entering workforce is enormous now -- we can't afford to do something like what prey animals do, with regards to work.

Chris2048 9y ago

> This is the real standard.. Why is it? A job is better than welfare, therefore it has value. The requirement that jobs are 'renewable' is only required of the average job, not every job.

solidsnack9000 9y ago
It's worth asking what it means for it to be required by the average job. Being renewable doesn't seem to admit of a lot of variation -- things are or aren't (but we could discuss something more formal for this and that would affect the remaining analysis). Accepting the idea that renewability is either slightly more than 1.0 or slightly less, if the "average job" is renewable it suggests most of the common jobs have to be renewable in practice. We could argue this in another way, which is to say that the average "career life course" or let's just say "life course" has to be renewable. This is where we encounter the idea that people should be setting themselves up for promotions -- but most people don't get promotions. It's not how life works. Promotions don't address the concern for the average life course.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  The job dynamic are likely a predator-prey style relationship of supply vs demand. The main features of janitorial work is few barriers to entry. There is fair demand, but there is plentiful supply which is why it is relatively low paid. If Janitors could only replace Janitors, then being "non-renewable" would reduce supply, increasing wage, and maintaining balance. In reality, the main feature of Janitorial work is most people otherwise lacking qualifications can do it; i.e. anyone. So it's not true that the renewability of janitorial work has a direct affect on supply. Instead, it depends on overall supply of unskilled labour.
  - solidsnack9000 9y ago
    Isn't the question one of the renewability of unskilled labor? Where does the unskilled labor come from?
  - solidsnack9000 9y ago
    > The job dynamic are likely a predator-prey style relationship of supply vs demand. I thought about this for a while after you wrote it. In a stable setting, where there is not a large and pre-existing supply of prey, prey animals tend to have large broods. Many off their offspring are preyed upon or otherwise unable to reproduce, but just enough make it in each generation and likewise manage to have large broods. This is not a behaviour that seems plausible with modern people. The amount of time required to educate someone prior to their entering workforce is enormous now -- we can't afford to do something like what prey animals do, with regards to work.