4 ms·

Here is the problem - you are a restaurant owner and someone walks in with a dog wearing some sort of blue or red vest with an official looking logo. What do yo

Here is the problem - you are a restaurant owner and someone walks in with a dog wearing some sort of blue or red vest with an official looking logo. What do you do? If it is a real service animal, you don't want to grill the poor disabled person for the dogs paperwork, you want to be a good guy, so you do nothing, and bunch of dog owners abuse that goodwill by bringing their dogs places they shouldn't.

nether 9y ago
Stop being a pussy? Politely ask for his papers, please, so that the rest of the patronage and dine in peace and in sanitary conditions. I have literally seen a "service dog" TAKE A SHIT ON THE FLOOR NEXT TO DINERS in California. Allowing that does not make a restaurateur a "good guy."
- iaabtpbtpnn 9y ago
  One of the major points in the article is that there are no papers, and even if there were, the law doesn't require the owner to explain himself beyond saying what specific task the dog is trained to do.
  - Powerofmene 9y ago
    And it is forbidden to ask more than if the individual has a disability and what task the dog is trained to perform. There can be nothing more discussed and denial of service to a disabled individual who is accompanied by a service dog (not the same as an ESA) comes with a huge fine but terrible public relations when it hits social media.
  - zaphar 9y ago
    It's quite likely that just asking that one question would be enough to screen out most fake service dogs. An ESA has not been trained to do any task and an answer along the lines of "It's been trained to comfort me." does not meet the ADA definition.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - RandVal30142 9y ago
      >just asking that one question would be enough to screen out most fake service dogs This seems to be true. About a week ago I witnessed my boss question someone on if their dog was a service animal. He was adamant that it was but his demeanor betrayed himself. I never saw someone get so maliciously defensive before, the person had to be told to leave because of his attitude from that point on. He actually called back and threatened my boss (on voicemail!) some time after leaving. That one simple question blew him out of the water. Dog seemed nice despite his owner, but it didn't seem to be doing anything but dogging about.
- umanwizard 9y ago
  Read the article -- there is no such thing as "papers" and asking for them is illegal.
- jameskegel 9y ago
  asking for papers is illegal.
  - t1c1 9y ago
    papers, please
- sctb 9y ago
  Please stop violating the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jdboyd 9y ago
You aren't allowed to ask for paper work anyway. Here is all they are allowed to ask: "A public entity may ask if the animal is required because of a disability and what work or task the animal has been trained to perform." See section f at https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/35.136 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/35.136 That said, just asking people with apparently inappropriate dogs what task the animal has been trained to perform would be a first step towards removing fake service animals. If they can't answer, I assume there is something you can do, but I don't know what that is exactly. It may depend on your state. In the case of a specifically badly behaving fake (or even real) service animals, section b of the same document says: "A public entity may ask an individual with a disability to remove a service animal from the premises if - (1) The animal is out of control and the animal's handler does not take effective action to control it; or (2) The animal is not housebroken.", so a dog barking or pooping in a business can definitely be ordered removed.
- KekDemaga 9y ago
  Thank god one lawmaker had the for thought to consider edge cases. The law seems entirely unreasonable until you get to the last paragraph.
- synicalx 9y ago
  Can't ask for paper work, but you can ask the owner how many fingers you're holding up. EDIT: Must remember, joking is not allowed here. HN is srs bsns EDIT: I'm going down with the ship, do your worst 10x'ers
- chris_wot 9y ago
  Yeah, that's a public entity, which is: "Public entity means - (1) Any State or local government; (2) Any department, agency, special purpose district, or other instrumentality of a State or States or local government; and (3) The National Railroad Passenger Corporation, and any commuter authority (as defined in section 103(8) of the Rail Passenger Service Act)."
- lsjdfkljdfwkwdf 9y ago
  Cmon it's a restaurant. Just eat the dog...
devwastaken 9y ago
The solution to that has to do with circumstance. Is the dog behaving fine? Then who cares? If its not, you get a manager and they ask if the dog is required, citing the problem. I don't see a need of doing all of this when every dog walks in.
- kelnos 9y ago
  By the time you need to fetch a manager to get them to inquire about the dog, it's too late: the damage has already been done.
- WillPostForFood 9y ago
  If nothing else, it is cheating and unfair to people who are respecting the law. Imagine it isn't finding a loophole where you can pay to get your dog in a restaurant, but a loophole where you can pay to get your child into a better school. Society works better when we all follow the same rules.
JBlue42 9y ago
Exactly this. The more you learn about the faking, the more suspect legit owners become and then it becomes a hassle. I find it mildly annoying to see dogs in restaurants and grocery stores, even more so in the work place, but I've heard of a lot of people abusing these laws here in LA to be able to get into apartment buildings that don't allow pets. As a neighbor, if you're animal isn't well-trained, I don't want to live near it in an apartment building. Were I someone allergic to pet dander, I wouldn't want to unknowingly live somewhere that a dog/cat had lived for years no matter how well you cleaned it. Especially at the expense we have to pay for rent in this city. I think taejo has it right in her/his comment about how US owners act about this stuff: "I don't think this would fly in the US, where cultural attitudes tend to be less "we've all got to do our bit to make society pleasant for everyone" and more "it's a free country and this is my dog, I'll train it if I want to"."

nether 9y ago

Stop being a pussy? Politely ask for his papers, please, so that the rest of the patronage and dine in peace and in sanitary conditions. I have literally seen a "service dog" TAKE A SHIT ON THE FLOOR NEXT TO DINERS in California. Allowing that does not make a restaurateur a "good guy."

iaabtpbtpnn 9y ago
One of the major points in the article is that there are no papers, and even if there were, the law doesn't require the owner to explain himself beyond saying what specific task the dog is trained to do.
- Powerofmene 9y ago
  And it is forbidden to ask more than if the individual has a disability and what task the dog is trained to perform. There can be nothing more discussed and denial of service to a disabled individual who is accompanied by a service dog (not the same as an ESA) comes with a huge fine but terrible public relations when it hits social media.
- zaphar 9y ago
  It's quite likely that just asking that one question would be enough to screen out most fake service dogs. An ESA has not been trained to do any task and an answer along the lines of "It's been trained to comfort me." does not meet the ADA definition.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - RandVal30142 9y ago
    >just asking that one question would be enough to screen out most fake service dogs This seems to be true. About a week ago I witnessed my boss question someone on if their dog was a service animal. He was adamant that it was but his demeanor betrayed himself. I never saw someone get so maliciously defensive before, the person had to be told to leave because of his attitude from that point on. He actually called back and threatened my boss (on voicemail!) some time after leaving. That one simple question blew him out of the water. Dog seemed nice despite his owner, but it didn't seem to be doing anything but dogging about.
umanwizard 9y ago
Read the article -- there is no such thing as "papers" and asking for them is illegal.
jameskegel 9y ago
asking for papers is illegal.
- t1c1 9y ago
  papers, please
sctb 9y ago
Please stop violating the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jdboyd 9y ago

You aren't allowed to ask for paper work anyway. Here is all they are allowed to ask: "A public entity may ask if the animal is required because of a disability and what work or task the animal has been trained to perform." See section f at https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/35.136 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/35.136 That said, just asking people with apparently inappropriate dogs what task the animal has been trained to perform would be a first step towards removing fake service animals. If they can't answer, I assume there is something you can do, but I don't know what that is exactly. It may depend on your state. In the case of a specifically badly behaving fake (or even real) service animals, section b of the same document says: "A public entity may ask an individual with a disability to remove a service animal from the premises if - (1) The animal is out of control and the animal's handler does not take effective action to control it; or (2) The animal is not housebroken.", so a dog barking or pooping in a business can definitely be ordered removed.

KekDemaga 9y ago
Thank god one lawmaker had the for thought to consider edge cases. The law seems entirely unreasonable until you get to the last paragraph.
synicalx 9y ago
Can't ask for paper work, but you can ask the owner how many fingers you're holding up. EDIT: Must remember, joking is not allowed here. HN is srs bsns EDIT: I'm going down with the ship, do your worst 10x'ers
chris_wot 9y ago
Yeah, that's a public entity, which is: "Public entity means - (1) Any State or local government; (2) Any department, agency, special purpose district, or other instrumentality of a State or States or local government; and (3) The National Railroad Passenger Corporation, and any commuter authority (as defined in section 103(8) of the Rail Passenger Service Act)."
lsjdfkljdfwkwdf 9y ago
Cmon it's a restaurant. Just eat the dog...

devwastaken 9y ago

The solution to that has to do with circumstance. Is the dog behaving fine? Then who cares? If its not, you get a manager and they ask if the dog is required, citing the problem. I don't see a need of doing all of this when every dog walks in.

kelnos 9y ago
By the time you need to fetch a manager to get them to inquire about the dog, it's too late: the damage has already been done.
WillPostForFood 9y ago
If nothing else, it is cheating and unfair to people who are respecting the law. Imagine it isn't finding a loophole where you can pay to get your dog in a restaurant, but a loophole where you can pay to get your child into a better school. Society works better when we all follow the same rules.

JBlue42 9y ago

Exactly this. The more you learn about the faking, the more suspect legit owners become and then it becomes a hassle. I find it mildly annoying to see dogs in restaurants and grocery stores, even more so in the work place, but I've heard of a lot of people abusing these laws here in LA to be able to get into apartment buildings that don't allow pets. As a neighbor, if you're animal isn't well-trained, I don't want to live near it in an apartment building. Were I someone allergic to pet dander, I wouldn't want to unknowingly live somewhere that a dog/cat had lived for years no matter how well you cleaned it. Especially at the expense we have to pay for rent in this city. I think taejo has it right in her/his comment about how US owners act about this stuff: "I don't think this would fly in the US, where cultural attitudes tend to be less "we've all got to do our bit to make society pleasant for everyone" and more "it's a free country and this is my dog, I'll train it if I want to"."