16 ms·

In Palo Alto and Menlo Park, it appears that all the landlords have colluded to forbid dogs. Both towns are very dog-friendly, just not for renters. However, if

In Palo Alto and Menlo Park, it appears that all the landlords have colluded to forbid dogs. Both towns are very dog-friendly, just not for renters. However, if you get a letter from a doctor saying that your dog is an ESA, which you can obtain online, then the landlord is forced to allow it (barring extreme circumstances like dangerous dogs). So that is what everyone does.

devdoomari 9y ago
lol maybe the doctors & landlords have some kind of back-deals on this?
aquilaFiera 9y ago
San Francisco is only marginally better, and yeah, everyone gets their dog registered as an ESA.
nomel 9y ago
Our manager encouraged us to get a letter to reduce the pet deposit. Our previous apartment manager taught us how to get the ESA.
- stock_toaster 9y ago
  I would assume it reduces their insurance rates to say "no pets, unless ESA".
  - ghostly_s 9y ago
    Doesn't pet damage fall under your renter's insurance liability + damage deposit? How is it relevant for the owner's property insurance?
    - diggernet 9y ago
      I've heard that some owner's policies raise liability premiums if tenants have dogs (especially certain breeds). Presumably due to risk of someone suing tenant + owner ("deep pockets") after a bite.
      - briandear 9y ago
        That is exactly the case. Dog bite liability is a huge issue. A pit bull injuring a child is massive liability. Breed size restrictions are a back door way of screening potentially dangerous breeds. A beagle, to my knowledge, has never killed anyone, but there are plenty of tragic cases where certain large breeds has maimed or injured people and other animals. It’s actually a fact that more dog bites are committed by small dogs, but a kid losing an arm over a chihuahua bite is unheard of, thus the liability risk for small dogs is dramatically lower. Also as a parent, I would be extremely wary of living in a community where pit bulls are allowed. As a property owner, I am not going to base the safety of my property on the hope that a pit bull owner has trained his dog appropriately. Hope is not a valid strategy for risk mitigation. I also have an admitted prejudice against pit bull owners based on my experience with such owners — so if I am legally able to discriminate against certain animals, I admit I would because it would allow me to avoid leasing to pit bull owners. If anyone has been a landlord for very long, they would know that you can tell a lot about a potential tenant by the type of dog they own — and the anecdotal experiences of my dad owning rental properties tend to support my prejudice. I actually actually own a large breed, a white Swiss shepherd, and I am completely understanding when people are wary of a massive working dog, although living in France, people here aren’t so afraid — perhaps because culturally the French seem to do a better job of training dogs so there are fewer experiences of people being attacked or annoyed by rowdy animals.
        bjterry 9y ago
        > A beagle, to my knowledge, has never killed anyone Wikipedia mentions two cases in the US[0], but what's more interesting is the existence and thoroughness of this Wikipedia page. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_Unite...
        JBlue42 9y ago
        That wikipedia page is amazing.
    - czep 9y ago
      It also lowers the attractiveness of the unit from the perspective of other potential tenants, since many people are not interested in living around the noise, smell, or allergens of animals.
rbritton 9y ago
Do they have some local law there that prevents forbidding ESA? The article specifically says, "Emotional support animals (let’s just use that as a catchall for any dog that provides comfort but does not perform a specific task) are specifically excluded by the ADA, and access for them is not provided by that law. Businesses and similar entities are left to define their own policies."
- iaabtpbtpnn 9y ago
  I don't have an ESA so I can't say firsthand, but my understanding is that in California, the Disabled Persons Act has this effect. Intuitively, I think the idea is that when your doctor certifies that you need an ESA, the reason is that you have a disability, so a landlord rejecting it would be illegal discrimination. Edit: I believe this only applies to housing, not restaurants or other businesses.
  - rbritton 9y ago
    Looks like the answer is "maybe": https://www.dor.ca.gov/DisabilityAccessInfo/DAS-Docs/SERVICE-ANIMAL-LAWS.pdf https://www.dor.ca.gov/DisabilityAccessInfo/DAS-Docs/SERVICE...
vforgione 9y ago
I spent $200 two years ago to register my dogs to avoid non refundable pet admin fees and pet rent. It's saved me almost $5k in bullshit charges. When landlords stop gouging, I'll stop finding loopholes.
- techsupporter 9y ago
  I mean, I get it, but this is a classic example of a tragedy of the commons. All these "fake" "registrations" (in quotes because registrations aren't required) do is make life even harder for the people who have a true need. And, yes, I'm a dog owner who's genuinely sorry and more than a little pissed off at how landlords operate in hot housing markets but economic need is not a true need. There are hundreds of rentals in Seattle that are off-limits to me because I own a dog and I flatly refuse to pay pet rent so it makes my life a little harder but a companion animal is a privilege, not a right.
  - iaabtpbtpnn 9y ago
    Well, it's what the law says. And when you think about it, aren't all pet dogs (not working dogs) emotional support animals, in a way? They're man's best friend, why else do people keep them? The rationalization is not difficult.
  - Spivak 9y ago
    > All these "fake" registrations do is make life even harder for the people who have a true need. How? It's not like legally required accommodation for service and support animals is a finite resource. Just because my hypothetical dog is an ESA doesn't make it harder for yours to be -- in fact it should make life easier for people with real need because more people will be familiar with the requirements and already have procedures/policies in place.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      It leads to folks with real service dogs being doubted and mistreated. Similar to how the rise of gluten free fad diets made life harder for some celiac sufferers.
WillPostForFood 9y ago
It indirectly becomes a form of discrimination against the poor. Wealthier renters play the game, call their doctor friends to get a note (like they did in high school to get out of tests). Poorer renters go look elsewhere.
- aaron695 9y ago
  Pets aren't cheap and are long term expenses. Why are the poor getting pets? Why do you think it's a right? Why shouldn't they be spending their money on their childrens education for instance or putting the money towards buying or other long term stablisers to their future.
  - etwigg 9y ago
    Dogs are fantastic for addressing childhood anxiety, and although they are expensive, they are much cheaper than a therapist. [1] [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284277087_Pet_Dogs_and_Children%27s_Health_Opportunities_for_Chronic_Disease_Prevention https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284277087_Pet_Dogs_...
    - aaron695 9y ago
      So is good parenting. When did we get to the stage where people need things to fix issues they create. Pets help, but not if you can't afford to keep them at the expense of a happy household. Dogs make people happier and emotionally better, not denying that. So does earning $70,000+ But if your poor your can't just earn $70,000+ and the same as keeping pets (they are easy to buy though) I'm happy to work to a future where everyone get both of those though.
      - rootlocus 9y ago
        > So does earning $70,000+ I don't earn that much, but in my country, I earn about 3-4 times the median salary. I really enjoy having the money and the liberty they provide. That doesn't stop me from being anxious and depressed most of the time though. I used to think money buys happiness. And for a time it did. However, that wears off as people adjust to the new financial status.
ffumarola 9y ago
100% yes. Looking for an apartment in the Bay Area is impossible with a dog. Doubly so if your dog is more than 30 lbs (really a large cat). Triply so if you have one of the breeds the large apartment complexes don't allow.
- WkndTriathlete 9y ago
  > Doubly so if your dog is more than 30 lbs (really a large cat). Maybe if you have a cougar for a pet. Large housecats are 15-18#. When they get to 30# they can't see their feet anymore because they are shaped like beach balls at that point.

devdoomari 9y ago

lol maybe the doctors & landlords have some kind of back-deals on this?

aquilaFiera 9y ago

San Francisco is only marginally better, and yeah, everyone gets their dog registered as an ESA.

nomel 9y ago

Our manager encouraged us to get a letter to reduce the pet deposit. Our previous apartment manager taught us how to get the ESA.

stock_toaster 9y ago
I would assume it reduces their insurance rates to say "no pets, unless ESA".
- ghostly_s 9y ago
  Doesn't pet damage fall under your renter's insurance liability + damage deposit? How is it relevant for the owner's property insurance?
  - diggernet 9y ago
    I've heard that some owner's policies raise liability premiums if tenants have dogs (especially certain breeds). Presumably due to risk of someone suing tenant + owner ("deep pockets") after a bite.
    - briandear 9y ago
      That is exactly the case. Dog bite liability is a huge issue. A pit bull injuring a child is massive liability. Breed size restrictions are a back door way of screening potentially dangerous breeds. A beagle, to my knowledge, has never killed anyone, but there are plenty of tragic cases where certain large breeds has maimed or injured people and other animals. It’s actually a fact that more dog bites are committed by small dogs, but a kid losing an arm over a chihuahua bite is unheard of, thus the liability risk for small dogs is dramatically lower. Also as a parent, I would be extremely wary of living in a community where pit bulls are allowed. As a property owner, I am not going to base the safety of my property on the hope that a pit bull owner has trained his dog appropriately. Hope is not a valid strategy for risk mitigation. I also have an admitted prejudice against pit bull owners based on my experience with such owners — so if I am legally able to discriminate against certain animals, I admit I would because it would allow me to avoid leasing to pit bull owners. If anyone has been a landlord for very long, they would know that you can tell a lot about a potential tenant by the type of dog they own — and the anecdotal experiences of my dad owning rental properties tend to support my prejudice. I actually actually own a large breed, a white Swiss shepherd, and I am completely understanding when people are wary of a massive working dog, although living in France, people here aren’t so afraid — perhaps because culturally the French seem to do a better job of training dogs so there are fewer experiences of people being attacked or annoyed by rowdy animals.
      - bjterry 9y ago
        > A beagle, to my knowledge, has never killed anyone Wikipedia mentions two cases in the US[0], but what's more interesting is the existence and thoroughness of this Wikipedia page. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_Unite...
        JBlue42 9y ago
        That wikipedia page is amazing.
  - czep 9y ago
    It also lowers the attractiveness of the unit from the perspective of other potential tenants, since many people are not interested in living around the noise, smell, or allergens of animals.

rbritton 9y ago

Do they have some local law there that prevents forbidding ESA? The article specifically says, "Emotional support animals (let’s just use that as a catchall for any dog that provides comfort but does not perform a specific task) are specifically excluded by the ADA, and access for them is not provided by that law. Businesses and similar entities are left to define their own policies."

iaabtpbtpnn 9y ago
I don't have an ESA so I can't say firsthand, but my understanding is that in California, the Disabled Persons Act has this effect. Intuitively, I think the idea is that when your doctor certifies that you need an ESA, the reason is that you have a disability, so a landlord rejecting it would be illegal discrimination. Edit: I believe this only applies to housing, not restaurants or other businesses.
- rbritton 9y ago
  Looks like the answer is "maybe": https://www.dor.ca.gov/DisabilityAccessInfo/DAS-Docs/SERVICE-ANIMAL-LAWS.pdf https://www.dor.ca.gov/DisabilityAccessInfo/DAS-Docs/SERVICE...

vforgione 9y ago

I spent $200 two years ago to register my dogs to avoid non refundable pet admin fees and pet rent. It's saved me almost $5k in bullshit charges. When landlords stop gouging, I'll stop finding loopholes.

techsupporter 9y ago
I mean, I get it, but this is a classic example of a tragedy of the commons. All these "fake" "registrations" (in quotes because registrations aren't required) do is make life even harder for the people who have a true need. And, yes, I'm a dog owner who's genuinely sorry and more than a little pissed off at how landlords operate in hot housing markets but economic need is not a true need. There are hundreds of rentals in Seattle that are off-limits to me because I own a dog and I flatly refuse to pay pet rent so it makes my life a little harder but a companion animal is a privilege, not a right.
- iaabtpbtpnn 9y ago
  Well, it's what the law says. And when you think about it, aren't all pet dogs (not working dogs) emotional support animals, in a way? They're man's best friend, why else do people keep them? The rationalization is not difficult.
- Spivak 9y ago
  > All these "fake" registrations do is make life even harder for the people who have a true need. How? It's not like legally required accommodation for service and support animals is a finite resource. Just because my hypothetical dog is an ESA doesn't make it harder for yours to be -- in fact it should make life easier for people with real need because more people will be familiar with the requirements and already have procedures/policies in place.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    It leads to folks with real service dogs being doubted and mistreated. Similar to how the rise of gluten free fad diets made life harder for some celiac sufferers.

WillPostForFood 9y ago

It indirectly becomes a form of discrimination against the poor. Wealthier renters play the game, call their doctor friends to get a note (like they did in high school to get out of tests). Poorer renters go look elsewhere.

aaron695 9y ago
Pets aren't cheap and are long term expenses. Why are the poor getting pets? Why do you think it's a right? Why shouldn't they be spending their money on their childrens education for instance or putting the money towards buying or other long term stablisers to their future.
- etwigg 9y ago
  Dogs are fantastic for addressing childhood anxiety, and although they are expensive, they are much cheaper than a therapist. [1] [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284277087_Pet_Dogs_and_Children%27s_Health_Opportunities_for_Chronic_Disease_Prevention https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284277087_Pet_Dogs_...
  - aaron695 9y ago
    So is good parenting. When did we get to the stage where people need things to fix issues they create. Pets help, but not if you can't afford to keep them at the expense of a happy household. Dogs make people happier and emotionally better, not denying that. So does earning $70,000+ But if your poor your can't just earn $70,000+ and the same as keeping pets (they are easy to buy though) I'm happy to work to a future where everyone get both of those though.
    - rootlocus 9y ago
      > So does earning $70,000+ I don't earn that much, but in my country, I earn about 3-4 times the median salary. I really enjoy having the money and the liberty they provide. That doesn't stop me from being anxious and depressed most of the time though. I used to think money buys happiness. And for a time it did. However, that wears off as people adjust to the new financial status.

ffumarola 9y ago

100% yes. Looking for an apartment in the Bay Area is impossible with a dog. Doubly so if your dog is more than 30 lbs (really a large cat). Triply so if you have one of the breeds the large apartment complexes don't allow.

WkndTriathlete 9y ago
> Doubly so if your dog is more than 30 lbs (really a large cat). Maybe if you have a cougar for a pet. Large housecats are 15-18#. When they get to 30# they can't see their feet anymore because they are shaped like beach balls at that point.