6 ms·

Putting on my asbestos suit... I started the telemetry project (aka SQM or CEIP) at Microsoft when I was on the MSN Explorer team. (Then Office got excited abou

by wrs 9y ago

Putting on my asbestos suit... I started the telemetry project (aka SQM or CEIP) at Microsoft when I was on the MSN Explorer team. (Then Office got excited about it, then SQL Server and Windows and nearly everyone else.) The original inspiration was being in a meeting much like the one described, where people were arguing about whether we should optimize the UI for 640x480, 800x600, or 1024x768 screens. The "argument" consisted almost entirely of anecdotes. I thought "Why don't we just measure how big the screens actually are, and then I won't have to attend any more meetings like this?" It turned out a lot of other people felt that way.

taneq 9y ago
There's a right way and a wrong way to do telemetry. The right way: When the Windows 7 RC was released, you guys made it available for free, with telemetry, as the final stage of real-world testing. It was up-front, it was open, it was optional. I was happy to join in, and bought Windows 7 when it came out, and it good. The wrong way: When Windows 10 was released, a whole lot of nebulously defined, mandatory telemetry was baked into the commercial release. The fact that it was "free" is irrelevant - this was a clear transition from "you own the software" to "MS, via the software, owns and monetizes you." Then the "Get Windows 10" push started and for over a year we had a pitched battle between MS trying to force users to upgrade, and users who didn't want Windows 10 with all its invasive marketing, telemetry (weird how that slider keeps changing itself back from "minimal" to "full", huh?), and loss of control of their systems. I've disagreed with MS's customer relations in the past but never before have I felt that they were actively hostile. I will never use Windows 10.
- spookthesunset 9y ago
  Every website you and everybody know you visits is full of telemetry used to improve the website. Why should "real" desktop software be any different?
  - flukus 9y ago
    Real desktop software has access to a lot of private and often sensitive information, my browser doesn't share that with any website.
  - ManlyBread 9y ago
    Because the desktop software is executed on my desktop - and since I'm the owner I'd like to have full control over what is happening on it instead of giving up that power for the benefit of a faceless entity and a foggy promise of "better user experience".
    - svick 9y ago
      A lot of telemetry gathering done by websites is also executed on your desktop. I don't think it makes a different that it's written in JavaScript and not C++.
      - ManlyBread 9y ago
        Of course it does make a difference - I can easily block the JS ones by installing NoScript.
      - Typhon 9y ago
        Client-side Javascript is executed in the browser, not on the desktop, it is sandboxed, it has no unlimited access to my local data on the disk.
  - beagle3 9y ago
    That's also bad, but at least it is reasonably well documented, and there are a variety of tools (Ghostery, uBlock Origin, uMatrix, Disconnect, Privacy Badger, AdBlockPlus, ....) that can all help you with controlling it. Unlike files, your OS has access to every file, every key press, etc; some of these get sent in the telemetry. Also, Win10 is mostly a black box in these respects, you don't know what gets sent and there is hardly any documentation either.
- wrs 9y ago
  Win 10 is way after my time. When I was the SQM architect we were very strict about not collecting any identifying information, the collection was always opt-in, and the intention was to publish a KB article with a list of the data points we collected (not sure if that happened). I don't know what the internal MSFT rules are now, but the conservative position I took back then does seem rather quaint given what happens on mobile platforms nowadays...
yuhong 9y ago
This is a good time to mention: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20161104-00/?p=94645 https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20161104-00/?p=... (I never knew about it before Raymond blogged it, even though it dates back to Win8 and was patented)

by wrs 9y ago

taneq 9y ago

There's a right way and a wrong way to do telemetry. The right way: When the Windows 7 RC was released, you guys made it available for free, with telemetry, as the final stage of real-world testing. It was up-front, it was open, it was optional. I was happy to join in, and bought Windows 7 when it came out, and it good. The wrong way: When Windows 10 was released, a whole lot of nebulously defined, mandatory telemetry was baked into the commercial release. The fact that it was "free" is irrelevant - this was a clear transition from "you own the software" to "MS, via the software, owns and monetizes you." Then the "Get Windows 10" push started and for over a year we had a pitched battle between MS trying to force users to upgrade, and users who didn't want Windows 10 with all its invasive marketing, telemetry (weird how that slider keeps changing itself back from "minimal" to "full", huh?), and loss of control of their systems. I've disagreed with MS's customer relations in the past but never before have I felt that they were actively hostile. I will never use Windows 10.

spookthesunset 9y ago
Every website you and everybody know you visits is full of telemetry used to improve the website. Why should "real" desktop software be any different?
- flukus 9y ago
  Real desktop software has access to a lot of private and often sensitive information, my browser doesn't share that with any website.
- ManlyBread 9y ago
  Because the desktop software is executed on my desktop - and since I'm the owner I'd like to have full control over what is happening on it instead of giving up that power for the benefit of a faceless entity and a foggy promise of "better user experience".
  - svick 9y ago
    A lot of telemetry gathering done by websites is also executed on your desktop. I don't think it makes a different that it's written in JavaScript and not C++.
    - ManlyBread 9y ago
      Of course it does make a difference - I can easily block the JS ones by installing NoScript.
    - Typhon 9y ago
      Client-side Javascript is executed in the browser, not on the desktop, it is sandboxed, it has no unlimited access to my local data on the disk.
- beagle3 9y ago
  That's also bad, but at least it is reasonably well documented, and there are a variety of tools (Ghostery, uBlock Origin, uMatrix, Disconnect, Privacy Badger, AdBlockPlus, ....) that can all help you with controlling it. Unlike files, your OS has access to every file, every key press, etc; some of these get sent in the telemetry. Also, Win10 is mostly a black box in these respects, you don't know what gets sent and there is hardly any documentation either.
wrs 9y ago
Win 10 is way after my time. When I was the SQM architect we were very strict about not collecting any identifying information, the collection was always opt-in, and the intention was to publish a KB article with a list of the data points we collected (not sure if that happened). I don't know what the internal MSFT rules are now, but the conservative position I took back then does seem rather quaint given what happens on mobile platforms nowadays...

yuhong 9y ago

This is a good time to mention: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20161104-00/?p=94645 https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20161104-00/?p=... (I never knew about it before Raymond blogged it, even though it dates back to Win8 and was patented)