3 ms·

> As a user, I don't care what makes your life easier as a developer You should. The easier my life is, the faster I can fix bugs and put out new releases.

flukus 9y ago
I'm dealing with the result of this attitude on my phone right now. The end result is I can't even install your app because I'm out of space on my phone. I'm out of space because every other app maker favored developer productivity over being conservative with users resources. It's a tragedy of the commons.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- burntsushi 9y ago
  Seems like you are shifting the goal posts. If I'm building something to run on resource constrained devices, then it makes sense to value use of resources more highly! But otherwise, most of your comments just seem to repeat the same old dynamic vs static linking debate that had been hashed out already for decades. There is no one right answer. Trade offs abound. People who expect a stable ABI from Rust such that normal Rust libraries can be dynamically linked like you would C libraries would do well to adjust their expectations. It isn't happening any time soon.
  - flukus 9y ago
    > most of your comments just seem to repeat the same old dynamic vs static linking debate that had been hashed out already for decades. There is no one right answer. Trade offs abound. Rust doesn't let me make that trade off, it's made the decision for me. > People who expect a stable ABI from Rust such that normal Rust libraries can be dynamically linked like you would C libraries would do well to adjust their expectations. It isn't happening any time soon. I think it's the rustaceans that need to adjust their expectations, as long as this holds rust won't be a real systems language, it stands a better chance of unseating java than c.
    - burntsushi 9y ago
      > Rust doesn't let me make that trade off, it's made the decision for me. Umm, right, exactly, the state of having a stable ABI is one set of trade offs, and even if that were option, electing to use it for dynamic linking is another set of trade offs. I feel like I was obviously referring to the former, but if that wasn't clear, it should be now. An obvious negative is exactly what you say: you can't use standard Rust libraries like you would C libraries. That's what I meant by trade offs. But there are plenty on the other side of things as well. > I think it's the rustaceans that need to adjust their expectations Sure! We do all the time! I'm just trying to tell you the reality of the situation. The reality is that Rust won't be getting a stable ABI (outside of explicitly exporting a stable C ABI) any time soon. If that means flukus doesn't consider Rust a systems language, then that's exactly what I meant by adjusting your expectations. But don't expect everyone to agree with you. From personal experience, a lot of folks don't care nearly as much as you do about things like "the binary is using 2.6MB instead of the equivalent C binary which is using only 156KB." Now if you're in a resource constrained environment where that size difference is important, then that's a different story, and you might want to spend more effort to use dynamic linking in Rust, which you can do. You won't get a stable ABI across different versions of rustc, but you can still get the size reduction if that's important to you in a specific use case.
Nomentatus 9y ago
I've previously suggested here that OSes and OS manufacturers should test and rate apps for tightness, and punish apps that aren't tight by handing them fewer resources - running them noticeably slower.

flukus 9y ago

I'm dealing with the result of this attitude on my phone right now. The end result is I can't even install your app because I'm out of space on my phone. I'm out of space because every other app maker favored developer productivity over being conservative with users resources. It's a tragedy of the commons.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
burntsushi 9y ago
Seems like you are shifting the goal posts. If I'm building something to run on resource constrained devices, then it makes sense to value use of resources more highly! But otherwise, most of your comments just seem to repeat the same old dynamic vs static linking debate that had been hashed out already for decades. There is no one right answer. Trade offs abound. People who expect a stable ABI from Rust such that normal Rust libraries can be dynamically linked like you would C libraries would do well to adjust their expectations. It isn't happening any time soon.
- flukus 9y ago
  > most of your comments just seem to repeat the same old dynamic vs static linking debate that had been hashed out already for decades. There is no one right answer. Trade offs abound. Rust doesn't let me make that trade off, it's made the decision for me. > People who expect a stable ABI from Rust such that normal Rust libraries can be dynamically linked like you would C libraries would do well to adjust their expectations. It isn't happening any time soon. I think it's the rustaceans that need to adjust their expectations, as long as this holds rust won't be a real systems language, it stands a better chance of unseating java than c.
  - burntsushi 9y ago
    > Rust doesn't let me make that trade off, it's made the decision for me. Umm, right, exactly, the state of having a stable ABI is one set of trade offs, and even if that were option, electing to use it for dynamic linking is another set of trade offs. I feel like I was obviously referring to the former, but if that wasn't clear, it should be now. An obvious negative is exactly what you say: you can't use standard Rust libraries like you would C libraries. That's what I meant by trade offs. But there are plenty on the other side of things as well. > I think it's the rustaceans that need to adjust their expectations Sure! We do all the time! I'm just trying to tell you the reality of the situation. The reality is that Rust won't be getting a stable ABI (outside of explicitly exporting a stable C ABI) any time soon. If that means flukus doesn't consider Rust a systems language, then that's exactly what I meant by adjusting your expectations. But don't expect everyone to agree with you. From personal experience, a lot of folks don't care nearly as much as you do about things like "the binary is using 2.6MB instead of the equivalent C binary which is using only 156KB." Now if you're in a resource constrained environment where that size difference is important, then that's a different story, and you might want to spend more effort to use dynamic linking in Rust, which you can do. You won't get a stable ABI across different versions of rustc, but you can still get the size reduction if that's important to you in a specific use case.

Nomentatus 9y ago

I've previously suggested here that OSes and OS manufacturers should test and rate apps for tightness, and punish apps that aren't tight by handing them fewer resources - running them noticeably slower.