4 ms·

Why does equality require a loss of chivalry? Equality does not mean we pretend people are completely uniform.

by cchurch 9y ago

kelnos 9y ago
No, but doesn't equality mean that we treat everyone in the same way, regardless of gender, for one thing?
- sattoshi 9y ago
  People aren't equal though. Coming from Russia, the West is really confused about what it wants. It seems to want chivalry plus equality minus morality. This desire is represented by factions who seem to work together on some level. The end result is a mess.
  - Nomentatus 9y ago
    A mess the end result of which is that people here touch far more rarely than they did in Victorian times. Yet we know that rarely being touched in childhood is a strong risk factor for promiscuity later on. As for equality, women are far more at risk from sexual predation and assault; I don't think it's rude to let social customs reflect this by having them initiate touch, largely.
    - lemonycracket 9y ago
      Women are more at risk for predation and assault? Excuse me, but last time I checked there were 9 times as many men in prison, with harsher sentences for the same crime. There are a 100 times more men than women sent to die and get maimed in wars. Men also suffer abuse at hands of women and men at a rate of 40%. Yes women do suffer abuse at hands of men AND women at rate of 60%. However the real reason for all this Chivalry has nothing to do with just cherry picking the one thing that women have a worse deal at. No, this has everything to do with the Feminine Imperative and Hypergamy and mating strategies. Fun fact: When a study of rape victims was done it turns out there were 1.35M women that were victims of rape and 1.25M MEN were victims of rape in the same year. (Sorry, dont have sources handy). Let that sink in
    - KSteffensen 9y ago
      Risk factor for promiscuity. Is promiscuity a bad thing? As long as you take proper precautions, it seems like sex is a good thing. I like it, anyway
      - Nomentatus 9y ago
        At a young age, yeah, it correlates with quite bad outcomes.
  - eksemplar 9y ago
    Democracy is messy, slow and complicated because it's build upon compromises between different factions. A lot of things in the west are more of a mess than they are in Russia, but there is a reason immigration streams one way.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      What is that reason? Seems there is a lot of money in the US, isn't that it?
      - nasredin 9y ago
        Go to JFK international arrivals and ask immigrants why did they come. I guarantee you would get hundreds of reasons not just one. Although they are probably gonna be "simple" reasons. Maybe something like having the right to waive the Rainbow Flag in front of the Whitehouse in case of Russian immigrants.
        Chris2048 9y ago
        How many of those reasons are one of "something money can fix" or "something getting a European visa can fix".
- peterwwillis 9y ago
  Equality in modern colloquial context (esp. regarding social strata) means equal "especially in status, rights, and opportunities". It really means fair treatment, not equal treatment. Another side effect of people using the wrong language and sticking with it.
calibration263 9y ago
Treating people different based on their gender(or race) is kind of the definition of descrimination. That said, equality shouldn't mean a loss of civility, politeness, or hell even being romantic. It also doesn't mean treating everyone uniformly. Once you get to know some one or grow closer with them and learn their likes and dislikes, obviously you'll treat them differently. However when you don't know them well you shouldn't default to method A for men and method B for women.
- 35bge57dtjku 9y ago
  > Treating people different based on their gender(or race) is kind of the definition of descrimination. Not really, it's also supposed to be unjust or harmful.
  - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
    Gender based etiquette is based on an idea of a weak and feeble minded gender. Can you see how that alone is harmful in some contexts?
    - belorn 9y ago
      It is based on two ideas: that one is weak and infirm and the other is strong and healthy. Attributing strength and health to gender identity carries with is all kind of problems for everyone involved.
tdb7893 9y ago
A lot of the chivalry seems to be just doing mundane things for women or treating them differently (opening doors, scooting out chairs, shaking hands differently). Women can do these things literally just as well so it's not like most of the "chivalry" we are losing is due to real differences between genders. I still get things off of high shelves or open pickle jars for my girlfriend but those are based on practical differences (she is tiny and I have great grip strength)
- sverige 9y ago
  Um, you just contradicted yourself.
  - tdb7893 9y ago
    Sorry for being unclear. My point to was that the vast majority of "chivalry" is in no way rooted in real physiological differences while trying to also highlight some small exceptions. Chivalry is mostly crap but also that you shouldn't avoid helping them (or anyone) when it makes sense. You shouldn't treat women any differently than anyone else who is in a similar situation (I do jujitsu so I have good grip strength and have helped both male and female friends open pickle jars as a weird example). EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to get across is that it's not your gender or ethnicity that makes you treat someone a different way, it's who they are as an individual. I think that the idea of "chivalry" runs generally counter to this.
    - DKnoll 9y ago
      My biggest question is why you and yours consume so many pickles that you have established protocols for opening the jars.
      - King-Aaron 9y ago
        Spoken like someone who truly does not hold a high enough appreciation for a good pickle.
  - 9y ago
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
Chivarly is profoundly sexist - not by chance but by design. It's entirely based on gender roles. Perhaps you are thinking "politeness", which is meant to be applied equally depending on other people gender, age, wealth...

Why does equality require a loss of chivalry? Equality does not mean we pretend people are completely uniform.

kelnos 9y ago

No, but doesn't equality mean that we treat everyone in the same way, regardless of gender, for one thing?

sattoshi 9y ago
People aren't equal though. Coming from Russia, the West is really confused about what it wants. It seems to want chivalry plus equality minus morality. This desire is represented by factions who seem to work together on some level. The end result is a mess.
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  A mess the end result of which is that people here touch far more rarely than they did in Victorian times. Yet we know that rarely being touched in childhood is a strong risk factor for promiscuity later on. As for equality, women are far more at risk from sexual predation and assault; I don't think it's rude to let social customs reflect this by having them initiate touch, largely.
  - lemonycracket 9y ago
    Women are more at risk for predation and assault? Excuse me, but last time I checked there were 9 times as many men in prison, with harsher sentences for the same crime. There are a 100 times more men than women sent to die and get maimed in wars. Men also suffer abuse at hands of women and men at a rate of 40%. Yes women do suffer abuse at hands of men AND women at rate of 60%. However the real reason for all this Chivalry has nothing to do with just cherry picking the one thing that women have a worse deal at. No, this has everything to do with the Feminine Imperative and Hypergamy and mating strategies. Fun fact: When a study of rape victims was done it turns out there were 1.35M women that were victims of rape and 1.25M MEN were victims of rape in the same year. (Sorry, dont have sources handy). Let that sink in
  - KSteffensen 9y ago
    Risk factor for promiscuity. Is promiscuity a bad thing? As long as you take proper precautions, it seems like sex is a good thing. I like it, anyway
    - Nomentatus 9y ago
      At a young age, yeah, it correlates with quite bad outcomes.
- eksemplar 9y ago
  Democracy is messy, slow and complicated because it's build upon compromises between different factions. A lot of things in the west are more of a mess than they are in Russia, but there is a reason immigration streams one way.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    What is that reason? Seems there is a lot of money in the US, isn't that it?
    - nasredin 9y ago
      Go to JFK international arrivals and ask immigrants why did they come. I guarantee you would get hundreds of reasons not just one. Although they are probably gonna be "simple" reasons. Maybe something like having the right to waive the Rainbow Flag in front of the Whitehouse in case of Russian immigrants.
      - Chris2048 9y ago
        How many of those reasons are one of "something money can fix" or "something getting a European visa can fix".
peterwwillis 9y ago
Equality in modern colloquial context (esp. regarding social strata) means equal "especially in status, rights, and opportunities". It really means fair treatment, not equal treatment. Another side effect of people using the wrong language and sticking with it.

calibration263 9y ago

Treating people different based on their gender(or race) is kind of the definition of descrimination. That said, equality shouldn't mean a loss of civility, politeness, or hell even being romantic. It also doesn't mean treating everyone uniformly. Once you get to know some one or grow closer with them and learn their likes and dislikes, obviously you'll treat them differently. However when you don't know them well you shouldn't default to method A for men and method B for women.

35bge57dtjku 9y ago
> Treating people different based on their gender(or race) is kind of the definition of descrimination. Not really, it's also supposed to be unjust or harmful.
- ringaroundthetx 9y ago
  Gender based etiquette is based on an idea of a weak and feeble minded gender. Can you see how that alone is harmful in some contexts?
  - belorn 9y ago
    It is based on two ideas: that one is weak and infirm and the other is strong and healthy. Attributing strength and health to gender identity carries with is all kind of problems for everyone involved.

tdb7893 9y ago

A lot of the chivalry seems to be just doing mundane things for women or treating them differently (opening doors, scooting out chairs, shaking hands differently). Women can do these things literally just as well so it's not like most of the "chivalry" we are losing is due to real differences between genders. I still get things off of high shelves or open pickle jars for my girlfriend but those are based on practical differences (she is tiny and I have great grip strength)

sverige 9y ago
Um, you just contradicted yourself.
- tdb7893 9y ago
  Sorry for being unclear. My point to was that the vast majority of "chivalry" is in no way rooted in real physiological differences while trying to also highlight some small exceptions. Chivalry is mostly crap but also that you shouldn't avoid helping them (or anyone) when it makes sense. You shouldn't treat women any differently than anyone else who is in a similar situation (I do jujitsu so I have good grip strength and have helped both male and female friends open pickle jars as a weird example). EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to get across is that it's not your gender or ethnicity that makes you treat someone a different way, it's who they are as an individual. I think that the idea of "chivalry" runs generally counter to this.
  - DKnoll 9y ago
    My biggest question is why you and yours consume so many pickles that you have established protocols for opening the jars.
    - King-Aaron 9y ago
      Spoken like someone who truly does not hold a high enough appreciation for a good pickle.
- 9y ago

eeZah7Ux 9y ago

Chivarly is profoundly sexist - not by chance but by design. It's entirely based on gender roles. Perhaps you are thinking "politeness", which is meant to be applied equally depending on other people gender, age, wealth...