11 ms·

And the one after on what percentage of software developers feel a disturbing lack of politics in programming language development. I love rust, but the commun

And the one after on what percentage of software developers feel a disturbing lack of politics in programming language development. I love rust, but the community's politics is very odd to me.

kbenson 9y ago
Politics as in national politics, or politics as in bureaucracy and people working the system for benefit (e.g. company politics)?
- david-cako 9y ago
  Social politics. Just odd socially-charged community management and documentation. I get a strong impression that the lead contributors (perhaps it's a mozilla cultural affect?) are very interested in pushing their equality agenda. Not that I don't subscribe to it in theory, it's just very tacky to me.
  - gcp 9y ago
    Got any examples where you think this shines through from the docs? Never noticed it. (I could easily imagine it in the community management so I'll take your word for that, but I've only really interacted with the IRC channels where this wasn't an issue)
    - Ruud-v-A 9y ago
      Not from the docs, but a pretty clear community example is that tickets for RustFest are more expensive for people who don’t belong to an underrepresented group. Edit: replaced “minority” with “underrepresented group”, as that is the language used on the website [1]. [1]: http://blog.rustfest.eu/this-week-in-rustfest-5-tickets-diversity http://blog.rustfest.eu/this-week-in-rustfest-5-tickets-dive...
      - kbenson 9y ago
        > Not from the docs, but a pretty clear community example is that tickets for RustFest are more expensive for people who don’t belong to a minority. Having just looked this up because I wasn't aware of it, I wouldn't classify that statement as true. They allow/ask for donations to help people from diverse locations attend. https://ti.to/asquera-event-ug/rustfest-zurich/ https://ti.to/asquera-event-ug/rustfest-zurich/ NOTE: THIS IS NOT A CONFERENCE TICKET. Support us bringing the opportunity to attend RustFest to more people around the globe who otherwise couldn't afford it. Anything you offer here will go into our diversity pool with the sole purpose of helping people from underrepresented groups attend RustFest. That doesn't mean minorities necessarily, and even if it did, it doesn't mean everyone in that group gets a cheaper ticket. From the first sentence though, it seems obvious they are trying to get diverse nationalities, not necessarily diverse ethnicity from the hosting country.
      - gcp 9y ago
        Unlike docs those conferences are totally optional when using the language. Which is why I asked for doc examples specifically, as that was OP's claim.
      - Manishearth 9y ago
        This is untrue. RustFest sponsors folks who couldn't otherwise attend with tickets (and sometimes travel and other things, I forget the details). This includes students (IIRC) They also have tickets on the site which you can buy to add money to the sponsorship pool.
        Ruud-v-A 9y ago
        The ticket site [1] states: > We believe in diversity and would like to provide support to people of many different backgrounds. This includes, but is not limited to people who belong to one or more of the following groups: people of color, women, nonbinary and gender non-conforming people, disabled people, people with mental health issues, and LGBTQIA+ people. [1]: https://diversitytickets.org/events/100 https://diversitytickets.org/events/100
    - zcdziura 9y ago
      There was a GitHub issue that I recently saw where there was some bike shedding about rustfmt changing the option name "bad-syntax" (or something like that) to something less "judgemental". The reasoning being that you may have a particular coding style that differs from what rustfmt thinks is correct, and is thus "bad" (with bad being defined as giving bad input into a program). I'll try to hunt down the exact URL for the issue... While the example isn't within official documentation, it does demonstrate the lead Rust devs placing a lot of importance on social politics, and tip-toeing around such politically sensitive topics as coding style. Again, as the OP stated, nothing in how the Rust development community handles itself can be stated as bad. They go out of their way to be inclusive to everyone, and I think that's admirable. The way they go about it, at least from the example I found, is a bit tacky. There are more important things to bikeshed about than the name of a simple option, and in doing so it can come across as a bit tacky. But what do I know, perhaps I'm the real problem here!
      - Manishearth 9y ago
        It was https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/41646 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/41646 It was about changing the name of a lint from "bad-style" to "non-standard-style". I still don't understand what this change has anything to do with social politics. Nor was this really related to being inclusive or whatever, it was just about being nicer. Sure, there are more important things to do. But that's true for just about any bikeshed, that's pretty much a prerequisite for a discussion to be a bikeshed. > While the example isn't within official documentation, it does demonstrate the lead Rust devs placing a lot of importance on social politics, and tip-toeing around such politically sensitive topics as coding style. That's a major extrapolation. I'm not a lead rust dev (I do have commit/r+, I guess that can count). I drive-by filed an issue during a conference talk that I thought would be a small improvement that would be nicer to newbies and also just more accurate ("bad style" doesn't actually convey anything, why is it bad?). Various rust devs posted opinions and thoughts there. Nobody was tiptoeing or anything. You're grossly misrepresenting what happened there.
        david-cako 9y ago
        These types of issues/pulls are honestly intellectually demeaning. I know you're acting in good faith, but it really feels like MK-Ultra braindrain. Imagine approaching Linus Torvalds at a conference and telling him that you think people who choose to disobey the documented code style (which I, and most others, do not necessarily use outside of Linux kernel code) are just using "non-standard code style".
    - david-cako 9y ago
      - User doesn't like the fact that buildbot (which they think is maintained by mozilla) uses "master/slave" terminology https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-buildbot/issues/2 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-buildbot/issues/2 . Mozilla gives buildbot $15k for changing it https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2015/12/10/mozilla-open-source-support-first-awards-made/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2015/12/10/mozilla-open-source... - User doesn't like that dining philosophers is cited with some male and/or gender-neutral pronouns and placeholders (even though the original exposition was already changed to female pronouns) -- proceeds to change the rest of the pronouns to female (I guess gender-neutral didn't make sense) https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/25640 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/25640 - User thinks "bad code style" is offensive https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/41646 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/41646 - User doesn't like brotli encoding type being called "bro" https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366559#c147 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366559#c147 - User thinks that the code of conduct is too general in its suggestions that all people be respected and treated fairly -- it needs to explicitly cite certain groups https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-www/issues/268 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-www/issues/268 This stuff is absolutely ridiculous. Write a code of conduct, make sure everyone is respected, and make that the end of it. Changing documentation to gender-neutral pronouns is something I can actually get behind -- nevertheless, that's still not fair apparently.
      - Etzos 9y ago
        > Write a code of conduct, make sure everyone is respected, and make that the end of it. But that's exactly what all of your examples are. In each situation the decision and action was to make things as neutral and inclusive as possible. That there are people in any given community which want things to be taken in a different direction (any direction, social or otherwise) seems like a pretty natural thing.
        david-cako 9y ago
        Good luck finding these types of patches in the Linux kernel dev community. There is a very specific type of culture that spawns this kind of timewasting.
  - erickt 9y ago
    Rust Core team member here. Our code of conduct [1] has been the fundamental cornerstone of our project and community since the beginning. Every large institution ends up having to choose explicitly or implicitly how they deal with conflict. We wanted to put our beliefs up front to enable people to choose if they want to participate with us, or not. When you boil it down, it's really "don't be a jerk". It doesn't seem to be that big of an ask that people don't harass each other, and for people to understand that everyone's situation is different. A lot of people have been discouraged from participating in tech, from active things like aggressive or rude language and sexualized imagery, to passive things like not providing for child care or mothers rooms at conferences. These are all things that are pretty simple to manage if you're aware of it. It's our belief that not only is this just the right thing to do, it's our best strategy of growing our community. I don't have any proof, but I do attribute our welcoming community to why we have 1,856 contributors to just our compiler. [1]: https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html
    - JohnBooty 9y ago
      Thanks for creating this code of conduct and helping to create an awesomer and more welcoming environment for Rust contributors.

And the one after on what percentage of software developers feel a disturbing lack of politics in programming language development. I love rust, but the community's politics is very odd to me.

kbenson 9y ago

Politics as in national politics, or politics as in bureaucracy and people working the system for benefit (e.g. company politics)?

david-cako 9y ago
Social politics. Just odd socially-charged community management and documentation. I get a strong impression that the lead contributors (perhaps it's a mozilla cultural affect?) are very interested in pushing their equality agenda. Not that I don't subscribe to it in theory, it's just very tacky to me.
- gcp 9y ago
  Got any examples where you think this shines through from the docs? Never noticed it. (I could easily imagine it in the community management so I'll take your word for that, but I've only really interacted with the IRC channels where this wasn't an issue)
  - Ruud-v-A 9y ago
    Not from the docs, but a pretty clear community example is that tickets for RustFest are more expensive for people who don’t belong to an underrepresented group. Edit: replaced “minority” with “underrepresented group”, as that is the language used on the website [1]. [1]: http://blog.rustfest.eu/this-week-in-rustfest-5-tickets-diversity http://blog.rustfest.eu/this-week-in-rustfest-5-tickets-dive...
    - kbenson 9y ago
      > Not from the docs, but a pretty clear community example is that tickets for RustFest are more expensive for people who don’t belong to a minority. Having just looked this up because I wasn't aware of it, I wouldn't classify that statement as true. They allow/ask for donations to help people from diverse locations attend. https://ti.to/asquera-event-ug/rustfest-zurich/ https://ti.to/asquera-event-ug/rustfest-zurich/ NOTE: THIS IS NOT A CONFERENCE TICKET. Support us bringing the opportunity to attend RustFest to more people around the globe who otherwise couldn't afford it. Anything you offer here will go into our diversity pool with the sole purpose of helping people from underrepresented groups attend RustFest. That doesn't mean minorities necessarily, and even if it did, it doesn't mean everyone in that group gets a cheaper ticket. From the first sentence though, it seems obvious they are trying to get diverse nationalities, not necessarily diverse ethnicity from the hosting country.
    - gcp 9y ago
      Unlike docs those conferences are totally optional when using the language. Which is why I asked for doc examples specifically, as that was OP's claim.
    - Manishearth 9y ago
      This is untrue. RustFest sponsors folks who couldn't otherwise attend with tickets (and sometimes travel and other things, I forget the details). This includes students (IIRC) They also have tickets on the site which you can buy to add money to the sponsorship pool.
      - Ruud-v-A 9y ago
        The ticket site [1] states: > We believe in diversity and would like to provide support to people of many different backgrounds. This includes, but is not limited to people who belong to one or more of the following groups: people of color, women, nonbinary and gender non-conforming people, disabled people, people with mental health issues, and LGBTQIA+ people. [1]: https://diversitytickets.org/events/100 https://diversitytickets.org/events/100
  - zcdziura 9y ago
    There was a GitHub issue that I recently saw where there was some bike shedding about rustfmt changing the option name "bad-syntax" (or something like that) to something less "judgemental". The reasoning being that you may have a particular coding style that differs from what rustfmt thinks is correct, and is thus "bad" (with bad being defined as giving bad input into a program). I'll try to hunt down the exact URL for the issue... While the example isn't within official documentation, it does demonstrate the lead Rust devs placing a lot of importance on social politics, and tip-toeing around such politically sensitive topics as coding style. Again, as the OP stated, nothing in how the Rust development community handles itself can be stated as bad. They go out of their way to be inclusive to everyone, and I think that's admirable. The way they go about it, at least from the example I found, is a bit tacky. There are more important things to bikeshed about than the name of a simple option, and in doing so it can come across as a bit tacky. But what do I know, perhaps I'm the real problem here!
    - Manishearth 9y ago
      It was https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/41646 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/41646 It was about changing the name of a lint from "bad-style" to "non-standard-style". I still don't understand what this change has anything to do with social politics. Nor was this really related to being inclusive or whatever, it was just about being nicer. Sure, there are more important things to do. But that's true for just about any bikeshed, that's pretty much a prerequisite for a discussion to be a bikeshed. > While the example isn't within official documentation, it does demonstrate the lead Rust devs placing a lot of importance on social politics, and tip-toeing around such politically sensitive topics as coding style. That's a major extrapolation. I'm not a lead rust dev (I do have commit/r+, I guess that can count). I drive-by filed an issue during a conference talk that I thought would be a small improvement that would be nicer to newbies and also just more accurate ("bad style" doesn't actually convey anything, why is it bad?). Various rust devs posted opinions and thoughts there. Nobody was tiptoeing or anything. You're grossly misrepresenting what happened there.
      - david-cako 9y ago
        These types of issues/pulls are honestly intellectually demeaning. I know you're acting in good faith, but it really feels like MK-Ultra braindrain. Imagine approaching Linus Torvalds at a conference and telling him that you think people who choose to disobey the documented code style (which I, and most others, do not necessarily use outside of Linux kernel code) are just using "non-standard code style".
  - david-cako 9y ago
    - User doesn't like the fact that buildbot (which they think is maintained by mozilla) uses "master/slave" terminology https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-buildbot/issues/2 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-buildbot/issues/2 . Mozilla gives buildbot $15k for changing it https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2015/12/10/mozilla-open-source-support-first-awards-made/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2015/12/10/mozilla-open-source... - User doesn't like that dining philosophers is cited with some male and/or gender-neutral pronouns and placeholders (even though the original exposition was already changed to female pronouns) -- proceeds to change the rest of the pronouns to female (I guess gender-neutral didn't make sense) https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/25640 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/25640 - User thinks "bad code style" is offensive https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/41646 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/41646 - User doesn't like brotli encoding type being called "bro" https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366559#c147 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366559#c147 - User thinks that the code of conduct is too general in its suggestions that all people be respected and treated fairly -- it needs to explicitly cite certain groups https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-www/issues/268 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-www/issues/268 This stuff is absolutely ridiculous. Write a code of conduct, make sure everyone is respected, and make that the end of it. Changing documentation to gender-neutral pronouns is something I can actually get behind -- nevertheless, that's still not fair apparently.
    - Etzos 9y ago
      > Write a code of conduct, make sure everyone is respected, and make that the end of it. But that's exactly what all of your examples are. In each situation the decision and action was to make things as neutral and inclusive as possible. That there are people in any given community which want things to be taken in a different direction (any direction, social or otherwise) seems like a pretty natural thing.
      - david-cako 9y ago
        Good luck finding these types of patches in the Linux kernel dev community. There is a very specific type of culture that spawns this kind of timewasting.
- erickt 9y ago
  Rust Core team member here. Our code of conduct [1] has been the fundamental cornerstone of our project and community since the beginning. Every large institution ends up having to choose explicitly or implicitly how they deal with conflict. We wanted to put our beliefs up front to enable people to choose if they want to participate with us, or not. When you boil it down, it's really "don't be a jerk". It doesn't seem to be that big of an ask that people don't harass each other, and for people to understand that everyone's situation is different. A lot of people have been discouraged from participating in tech, from active things like aggressive or rude language and sexualized imagery, to passive things like not providing for child care or mothers rooms at conferences. These are all things that are pretty simple to manage if you're aware of it. It's our belief that not only is this just the right thing to do, it's our best strategy of growing our community. I don't have any proof, but I do attribute our welcoming community to why we have 1,856 contributors to just our compiler. [1]: https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html
  - JohnBooty 9y ago
    Thanks for creating this code of conduct and helping to create an awesomer and more welcoming environment for Rust contributors.