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Consider this example: It is raining outside. I go outside without a coat and get wet. I tell you its ok to go outside without a coat, so you come outside with

Consider this example: It is raining outside. I go outside without a coat and get wet. I tell you its ok to go outside without a coat, so you come outside without wearing a coat. Is it my fault that you are wet, or your own? I would say that you made the decision, even if it was influenced by me. Do you not agree?

rndmwlk 9y ago
I understand what you're trying to say but that isn't really a great example in this context. First of all, what if you were to tell a young child the same thing, who is at fault now? Let's say you have a father who doesn't value education at all. By the time you're in middle school you've already been conditioned to think education is unimportant and a waste of time. That's the type of influence I'm talking about, and it's not as simple as walking away from that.
- restingrobot 9y ago
  Children are not usually the ones making difficult financial decisions. In this metaphor I am assuming you and I are both adults. Being conditioned to believe something is not the same as being unable to form your own conclusions. Yes I agree parents have a huge influence on their children's values. However, at some point an adult must take ownership of their own life and their own values.
  - rndmwlk 9y ago
    What you seem unable to grasp is that the decisions you make as an adult are shaped by your youth. Not to mention the decisions you make as a youth shape your adulthood. Fast forwarding to adulthood and pretending like everyone is at an equal footing is untrue.
eesmith 9y ago
I have no idea what that argument is supposed to mean. Here's an explanation from Terry Pratchett: “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”
- notyourday 9y ago
  > But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. Rubbish. Whoever thinks that Good Leather Boots Last Years and Years never wore leather boots for years and years.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  Nowadays, such good boots are even more expensive. Rich also have access to time saving measures poor can only dream of... (unless they somehow cooperate, and that gets harder every day they are poor and cannot afford time or money to establish connections.)
cannonedhamster 9y ago
Your analogy is wrong. It's more like it's raining outside. Since you grew up poor it's also raining inside your house. This caused your food in the cupboard to rot and mold and means that your computer doesn't work because your power went out. Now sure if your parents had fixed the roof instead of buying groceries the food wouldn't have molded, but you'd still be hungry. You're forced to take on debt because the local area doesn't have any nighttime work. Then Dad gets sick. Since they didn't have the money to have mom and Dad both work, Mom doesn't have the skills needed to have a job that could provide and keep the house going, so now you've got to hold a job, keep your grades up, and try and pay Dad's medical bills. How is any of this your fault? You're still never going to get out of debt. The American system is rigged so that you can make all the right moves and still lose. That's the problem with the system. Not that it's unfair, or that someone doesn't have the same opportunities. I'm a perfect example of someone who came from nothing and has worked myself into wealth (or at least into a life where I'm not struggling). I made most of the right choices, but it still required immense amounts of luck and hard work. All the hard work does is set you up to be able to take advantage of the hard work. If we really want to solve the problem of poverty without disincentivizing or punishing hard work it will require that it's easier to climb financial classes. What we have in place now only benefits those at the top and essentially pulls all the ladders up from the bottom. Our system is broken and there isn't a simple solution. It requires community reinvestment, appropriately funded community initiatives, and excellent leadership both at the state and federal levels.
- restingrobot 9y ago
  The metaphor was in regards to decision making and responsibility. It was not regarding being poor or in poverty whatsoever.
  - cannonedhamster 9y ago
    But you're missing the point that even if you do everything right, you can still fail. Your decisions only matter insofar as you get lucky after making them if you start poor.

rndmwlk 9y ago

I understand what you're trying to say but that isn't really a great example in this context. First of all, what if you were to tell a young child the same thing, who is at fault now? Let's say you have a father who doesn't value education at all. By the time you're in middle school you've already been conditioned to think education is unimportant and a waste of time. That's the type of influence I'm talking about, and it's not as simple as walking away from that.

restingrobot 9y ago
Children are not usually the ones making difficult financial decisions. In this metaphor I am assuming you and I are both adults. Being conditioned to believe something is not the same as being unable to form your own conclusions. Yes I agree parents have a huge influence on their children's values. However, at some point an adult must take ownership of their own life and their own values.
- rndmwlk 9y ago
  What you seem unable to grasp is that the decisions you make as an adult are shaped by your youth. Not to mention the decisions you make as a youth shape your adulthood. Fast forwarding to adulthood and pretending like everyone is at an equal footing is untrue.

eesmith 9y ago

I have no idea what that argument is supposed to mean. Here's an explanation from Terry Pratchett: “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”

notyourday 9y ago
> But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. Rubbish. Whoever thinks that Good Leather Boots Last Years and Years never wore leather boots for years and years.
AstralStorm 9y ago
Nowadays, such good boots are even more expensive. Rich also have access to time saving measures poor can only dream of... (unless they somehow cooperate, and that gets harder every day they are poor and cannot afford time or money to establish connections.)

cannonedhamster 9y ago

Your analogy is wrong. It's more like it's raining outside. Since you grew up poor it's also raining inside your house. This caused your food in the cupboard to rot and mold and means that your computer doesn't work because your power went out. Now sure if your parents had fixed the roof instead of buying groceries the food wouldn't have molded, but you'd still be hungry. You're forced to take on debt because the local area doesn't have any nighttime work. Then Dad gets sick. Since they didn't have the money to have mom and Dad both work, Mom doesn't have the skills needed to have a job that could provide and keep the house going, so now you've got to hold a job, keep your grades up, and try and pay Dad's medical bills. How is any of this your fault? You're still never going to get out of debt. The American system is rigged so that you can make all the right moves and still lose. That's the problem with the system. Not that it's unfair, or that someone doesn't have the same opportunities. I'm a perfect example of someone who came from nothing and has worked myself into wealth (or at least into a life where I'm not struggling). I made most of the right choices, but it still required immense amounts of luck and hard work. All the hard work does is set you up to be able to take advantage of the hard work. If we really want to solve the problem of poverty without disincentivizing or punishing hard work it will require that it's easier to climb financial classes. What we have in place now only benefits those at the top and essentially pulls all the ladders up from the bottom. Our system is broken and there isn't a simple solution. It requires community reinvestment, appropriately funded community initiatives, and excellent leadership both at the state and federal levels.

restingrobot 9y ago
The metaphor was in regards to decision making and responsibility. It was not regarding being poor or in poverty whatsoever.
- cannonedhamster 9y ago
  But you're missing the point that even if you do everything right, you can still fail. Your decisions only matter insofar as you get lucky after making them if you start poor.