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If you agree with: "You are more likely to be poor as an adult if you grew up in a poor household." How can you also agree with: "the only thing standing bet

If you agree with: "You are more likely to be poor as an adult if you grew up in a poor household." How can you also agree with: "the only thing standing between a poor person and the life of their dreams is their own decisions, their own choices, and their own failures." Clearly personal responsibility plays a role, but to deny outside influence and put the entire burden of poverty on choice is a bit much. I think that the article actually brings up one of the largest points - being poor is expensive. It's hard to move when you don't have the money to put down a deposit, even if that is the long term cheaper option. Being poor can force your hand into a lot of economically bad decisions.

restingrobot 9y ago
Its easy to reconcile both of these statements. Those that grew up in poor households often witnessed their parents make poor economic decisions. If you make the same decisions as your parents, (possibly because they just don't know any better), then your poverty is still a result of your decision. We need to focus on education and adjustment, and not on any outside influence. Frankly, I do believe that life can really make things hard, but by focusing on things within our control we can make progress rather than repeating the cycle.
- rndmwlk 9y ago
  >then your poverty is still a result of your decision. Except those decisions have been influenced by you growing up in poverty, which you've already pointed out.
  - restingrobot 9y ago
    Consider this example: It is raining outside. I go outside without a coat and get wet. I tell you its ok to go outside without a coat, so you come outside without wearing a coat. Is it my fault that you are wet, or your own? I would say that you made the decision, even if it was influenced by me. Do you not agree?
    - rndmwlk 9y ago
      I understand what you're trying to say but that isn't really a great example in this context. First of all, what if you were to tell a young child the same thing, who is at fault now? Let's say you have a father who doesn't value education at all. By the time you're in middle school you've already been conditioned to think education is unimportant and a waste of time. That's the type of influence I'm talking about, and it's not as simple as walking away from that.
      - restingrobot 9y ago
        Children are not usually the ones making difficult financial decisions. In this metaphor I am assuming you and I are both adults. Being conditioned to believe something is not the same as being unable to form your own conclusions. Yes I agree parents have a huge influence on their children's values. However, at some point an adult must take ownership of their own life and their own values.
        rndmwlk 9y ago
        What you seem unable to grasp is that the decisions you make as an adult are shaped by your youth. Not to mention the decisions you make as a youth shape your adulthood. Fast forwarding to adulthood and pretending like everyone is at an equal footing is untrue.
    - eesmith 9y ago
      I have no idea what that argument is supposed to mean. Here's an explanation from Terry Pratchett: “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”
- sharemywin 9y ago
  There are plenty of scenarios where you could end up in poverty through no fault of your own. illnesses(childhood), wrongful incarceration, etc. There are also plenty of decisions that seem harmless enough(everyone else is doing them) that carry life long consequences. And choosing the wrong role models at certain points in your life can have life long consequences.
- eesmith 9y ago
  This is exactly why those who haven't lived in poverty might want to hold off from telling poor people what to do. I can make lousy economic decisions because I'm not poor. When I mess up, I can say "oops", and not worry much about the money. Poor people don't have that luxury. Sure, some also make lousy decisions. But most have to be very careful with their money, because they don't have much. For example, is it more worthwhile to fix the car, get dental work done, or feed the children? That's the sort of calculation I never want to worry about, but which poor people have to consider all the time.
danielvf 9y ago
It's not a contradiction - if your parents made financially poor choices, you are more likely to as well, but that does not change the fact that good choices usually lead to better outcomes, and that you can still make those good choices, in spite of your parent's choices. For example, an acquaintance of mine got a pay increase by getting a new three month contract job (in the $30,000 a year range, no heath insurance included). Before starting work, she traded in her car for a new Toyota Camery on a five year loan with 7% interest. This was a terrible decision. She's taking home less now money now then she was with a lower paying job. She can barely make the payments. If she sells the car, she loses thousands of dollars - if she could even sell it. And if this job doesn't renew, then she's really sunk. Importantly, it doesn't matter at if her parents were rich or poor. There were plenty of other options. If you can learn about the other options, and spend wisely, you do better.
- rndmwlk 9y ago
  Of course good choices are better all else being equal. The point isn't to absolve personal responsibility from the equation entirely. You guys are trying to separate out these decisions you make from your upbringing, which is impossible. The decisions you have made, good and bad, were in some way influenced by your upbringing. Maybe you had a poorer education because your parents couldn't cherry pick a neighborhood with great schools. Maybe you had bad influences in the poor neighborhood because of the higher crime. These decisions aren't made in a vacuum, and pretending that your upbringing has no influence over your choices is just wrong.
gozur88 9y ago
>How can you also agree with... Because IQ is largely heritable, and the best indicator of your income and health later in life is your IQ. It's not that growing up in a poor household makes you poor - it's that you're going to be poor for the same reason your parents were poor.
- restingrobot 9y ago
  Its incredibly naive to say that IQ and poverty are causally related. Yes there is correlation between higher IQ's and higher incomes, but you are making a sweeping generalization here implying causality.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    I would say it's incredibly naive to think that IQ and poverty aren't causally related. If you've ever worked with lower IQ people it should be pretty obvious the jobs they're capable of doing don't pay well.
    - Powerofmene 9y ago
      And if a person is even capable of holding a job they need supports through waivers to do the work and keep the job let alone get to their job. These waivers have unreasonably long waiting lists (10-20 years in a number of states). Plus this is assuming there is a company willing to give a job to a person w an IQ of say 60 who needs a personal assistant to perform his/her job and keep that person on task.
  - Powerofmene 9y ago
    Really? Are you aware that children who are born with permanent disabilities draw Supplemental Security Income (basically a form of welfare through Social Security based on their disability) once they turn 18. Most of these individuals are incapable of employment let allow caring for themselves. They draw a whopping $735 a month. Some states provide small bumps to this payment but the majority do not. How would you live if you received $735 a month to cover rent, food, clothing, transportation, prescriptions, etc.? I can tell you from seeing it thousands of times; you would have a few clothes and by that I mean two to three outfits, likely no winter coat, one set of shoes, you would have a few personal luxuries (likely books or the truly lucky a DVD). You would have a toothbrush but probably cannot afford toothpaste, you eat the cheapest food around, you have furniture that is given to you and likely in shambles, you buy only generic stuff and you water down your shampoo, soap to make it last longer. You wash your clothes only after wearing them 2 times. You are virtually a prisoner in your home because you cannot afford bus fare to go anywhere and you have nowhere to go because you have no real friends. You never celebrate a birthday or Christmas because it is just another depressing day in a lonely existence. Your money, what little you have, is stolen from you either outright or you are talked into "helping" someone whose sole intent is to get your money and run. Get the picture.....people who have very low IQs and have a birth injury have zero chances of a good life and yes, they are poor. They are dirt poor. The very few who still have involved family have parents who are stressed beyond what anybody should be because they have no idea what will happen to their child when they die. Who will house them, prepare their food and in some cases feed them, ensure they take a bath, have clothes to wear, pay the utilities, etc.? Talk to a parent and I assure you it'll be a common expression that their greatest prayer is that they outlive their child even though no parent should have to bury a child. They know that their child is going to be relegated to a group home with no sense of individuality and likely become a victim of abuse. Just saying, there are more than 1.5 million people in the US alone with a diagnosis of mental retardation. These people are destined to be poor forever because in order to get their $735 they can never have assets over $2,000. With no job and no hope of one, families cannot even gift a loved on with MR anything that would put them at risk of losing the health benefits they receive along with their $735. While a portion would gladly forgo the $735, they cannot do so because their loved one would have zero health insurance.

restingrobot 9y ago

Its easy to reconcile both of these statements. Those that grew up in poor households often witnessed their parents make poor economic decisions. If you make the same decisions as your parents, (possibly because they just don't know any better), then your poverty is still a result of your decision. We need to focus on education and adjustment, and not on any outside influence. Frankly, I do believe that life can really make things hard, but by focusing on things within our control we can make progress rather than repeating the cycle.

rndmwlk 9y ago
>then your poverty is still a result of your decision. Except those decisions have been influenced by you growing up in poverty, which you've already pointed out.
- restingrobot 9y ago
  Consider this example: It is raining outside. I go outside without a coat and get wet. I tell you its ok to go outside without a coat, so you come outside without wearing a coat. Is it my fault that you are wet, or your own? I would say that you made the decision, even if it was influenced by me. Do you not agree?
  - rndmwlk 9y ago
    I understand what you're trying to say but that isn't really a great example in this context. First of all, what if you were to tell a young child the same thing, who is at fault now? Let's say you have a father who doesn't value education at all. By the time you're in middle school you've already been conditioned to think education is unimportant and a waste of time. That's the type of influence I'm talking about, and it's not as simple as walking away from that.
    - restingrobot 9y ago
      Children are not usually the ones making difficult financial decisions. In this metaphor I am assuming you and I are both adults. Being conditioned to believe something is not the same as being unable to form your own conclusions. Yes I agree parents have a huge influence on their children's values. However, at some point an adult must take ownership of their own life and their own values.
      - rndmwlk 9y ago
        What you seem unable to grasp is that the decisions you make as an adult are shaped by your youth. Not to mention the decisions you make as a youth shape your adulthood. Fast forwarding to adulthood and pretending like everyone is at an equal footing is untrue.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    I have no idea what that argument is supposed to mean. Here's an explanation from Terry Pratchett: “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”
sharemywin 9y ago
There are plenty of scenarios where you could end up in poverty through no fault of your own. illnesses(childhood), wrongful incarceration, etc. There are also plenty of decisions that seem harmless enough(everyone else is doing them) that carry life long consequences. And choosing the wrong role models at certain points in your life can have life long consequences.
eesmith 9y ago
This is exactly why those who haven't lived in poverty might want to hold off from telling poor people what to do. I can make lousy economic decisions because I'm not poor. When I mess up, I can say "oops", and not worry much about the money. Poor people don't have that luxury. Sure, some also make lousy decisions. But most have to be very careful with their money, because they don't have much. For example, is it more worthwhile to fix the car, get dental work done, or feed the children? That's the sort of calculation I never want to worry about, but which poor people have to consider all the time.

danielvf 9y ago

It's not a contradiction - if your parents made financially poor choices, you are more likely to as well, but that does not change the fact that good choices usually lead to better outcomes, and that you can still make those good choices, in spite of your parent's choices. For example, an acquaintance of mine got a pay increase by getting a new three month contract job (in the $30,000 a year range, no heath insurance included). Before starting work, she traded in her car for a new Toyota Camery on a five year loan with 7% interest. This was a terrible decision. She's taking home less now money now then she was with a lower paying job. She can barely make the payments. If she sells the car, she loses thousands of dollars - if she could even sell it. And if this job doesn't renew, then she's really sunk. Importantly, it doesn't matter at if her parents were rich or poor. There were plenty of other options. If you can learn about the other options, and spend wisely, you do better.

rndmwlk 9y ago
Of course good choices are better all else being equal. The point isn't to absolve personal responsibility from the equation entirely. You guys are trying to separate out these decisions you make from your upbringing, which is impossible. The decisions you have made, good and bad, were in some way influenced by your upbringing. Maybe you had a poorer education because your parents couldn't cherry pick a neighborhood with great schools. Maybe you had bad influences in the poor neighborhood because of the higher crime. These decisions aren't made in a vacuum, and pretending that your upbringing has no influence over your choices is just wrong.

gozur88 9y ago

>How can you also agree with... Because IQ is largely heritable, and the best indicator of your income and health later in life is your IQ. It's not that growing up in a poor household makes you poor - it's that you're going to be poor for the same reason your parents were poor.

restingrobot 9y ago
Its incredibly naive to say that IQ and poverty are causally related. Yes there is correlation between higher IQ's and higher incomes, but you are making a sweeping generalization here implying causality.
- gozur88 9y ago
  I would say it's incredibly naive to think that IQ and poverty aren't causally related. If you've ever worked with lower IQ people it should be pretty obvious the jobs they're capable of doing don't pay well.
  - Powerofmene 9y ago
    And if a person is even capable of holding a job they need supports through waivers to do the work and keep the job let alone get to their job. These waivers have unreasonably long waiting lists (10-20 years in a number of states). Plus this is assuming there is a company willing to give a job to a person w an IQ of say 60 who needs a personal assistant to perform his/her job and keep that person on task.
- Powerofmene 9y ago
  Really? Are you aware that children who are born with permanent disabilities draw Supplemental Security Income (basically a form of welfare through Social Security based on their disability) once they turn 18. Most of these individuals are incapable of employment let allow caring for themselves. They draw a whopping $735 a month. Some states provide small bumps to this payment but the majority do not. How would you live if you received $735 a month to cover rent, food, clothing, transportation, prescriptions, etc.? I can tell you from seeing it thousands of times; you would have a few clothes and by that I mean two to three outfits, likely no winter coat, one set of shoes, you would have a few personal luxuries (likely books or the truly lucky a DVD). You would have a toothbrush but probably cannot afford toothpaste, you eat the cheapest food around, you have furniture that is given to you and likely in shambles, you buy only generic stuff and you water down your shampoo, soap to make it last longer. You wash your clothes only after wearing them 2 times. You are virtually a prisoner in your home because you cannot afford bus fare to go anywhere and you have nowhere to go because you have no real friends. You never celebrate a birthday or Christmas because it is just another depressing day in a lonely existence. Your money, what little you have, is stolen from you either outright or you are talked into "helping" someone whose sole intent is to get your money and run. Get the picture.....people who have very low IQs and have a birth injury have zero chances of a good life and yes, they are poor. They are dirt poor. The very few who still have involved family have parents who are stressed beyond what anybody should be because they have no idea what will happen to their child when they die. Who will house them, prepare their food and in some cases feed them, ensure they take a bath, have clothes to wear, pay the utilities, etc.? Talk to a parent and I assure you it'll be a common expression that their greatest prayer is that they outlive their child even though no parent should have to bury a child. They know that their child is going to be relegated to a group home with no sense of individuality and likely become a victim of abuse. Just saying, there are more than 1.5 million people in the US alone with a diagnosis of mental retardation. These people are destined to be poor forever because in order to get their $735 they can never have assets over $2,000. With no job and no hope of one, families cannot even gift a loved on with MR anything that would put them at risk of losing the health benefits they receive along with their $735. While a portion would gladly forgo the $735, they cannot do so because their loved one would have zero health insurance.