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For the most part, JavaScript doesn't need a build system, so from a practical standpoint npm is its build system. Most JS projects shouldn't require anything m

by orclev 9y ago

For the most part, JavaScript doesn't need a build system, so from a practical standpoint npm is its build system. Most JS projects shouldn't require anything more complicated than npm install to put them in the proper location. Now you can argue for something like a minifier, and things like Typescript add a wrinkle (as it actually does need a build system), but all that should still be able to be handled by npm. I'm curious how you would use Make to install dependencies. I'm aware of Guix, but that's probably an extreme example, most people probably aren't willing to sandbox literally their entire OS install, plus it's entirely unreasonable to require a particular OS in order to handle dependencies of your project. It shouldn't matter what OS I'm using (within reason), the project should have an automated way to install any dependencies it requires. Here's the thing with Make, even if used only as part of a build system, it's both too complicated, and not complicated enough at the same time. The makefile format when used very sparingly isn't too bad, but once you pass needing more than 2 or 3 rules it gets unwieldy, and on any significantly sized project it will need more than 2 or 3 rules. Using autoconf and automake just proves the point, now you're using a build system to build your build system. Autoconf in particular is way too complicated, and an absolute nightmare to try to extend or customize. Instead of using a tiny little sliver of make as essentially build system glue to connect the actual build tools together, why not just use slightly more powerful build tools and get rid of make all together?

rekado 9y ago
You wrote: > I'm aware of Guix, but that's probably an extreme example, most people probably aren't willing to sandbox literally their entire OS install, plus it's entirely unreasonable to require a particular OS in order to handle dependencies of your project. It shouldn't matter what OS I'm using (within reason), the project should have an automated way to install any dependencies it requires. Guix is just a package manager, not an operating system. The Guix System Distribution, on the other hand, is a GNU system. You can use Guix on any GNU+Linux system; you do not need GuixSD for that.
jolson88 9y ago
Author here. Great feedback! Thanks for taking the time to share it :). If I were creating a JavaScript library package that I was just going to push up to npm, I don't think I'd use Make either. yes, Typescript adds a wrinkle, but like you mention, that can all be handled by npm scripts as well. If it was just a JavaScript library, I'd definitely just use npm scripts and call out to eslint, and other tools just fine and not be any less happy. However, big front-end applications I think are starting to become more and more complex and can benefit from this. Part of the reason is perhaps more because of the lack-of-functionality around incremental builds in the compilers themselves (thinking less/sass/minify/uglify/etc., this is where I've seen people usually fall back to using Gulp). As the application becomes larger, I think the lack of incremental build becomes more and more of a tax on the developer because the builds become longer and longer (I've worked on several projects like that). I think perhaps the biggest impact on this project where Make is used had more to do with the modular project architecture than anything else. If it weren't for that, I'm not sure I'd ever even think of Make. And frankly, I think a modular project structure in a single github repository like this project uses is most likely not the right solution (or even a good idea) for a vast number of JavaScript/TypeScript projects out there. When the article talks about dependencies, it is more talking about dependencies within the project itself (due to the modular architecture). Before I switched it over to Make, it was using a combination of preinstall, postinstall, and custom "prestart" scripts to do everything in the right order because it wasn't as simple as using `npm link` or doing a single npm install in the root of the project. These various scripts become a total mishmash of different approaches and it became increasingly difficult to understand and visualize what was being built when and in what order. It wasn't uncommon to run into issues as well where one project would be `npm install`'d before it's dependencies were actually ready to be used (since they hadn't been compiled and packaged yet). With that said, Make in this project doesn't install dependencies in the sense that I think you are discussing. This project is most definitely a Node.js project and uses npm for all that stuff. It's just within the project itself, there are sub-projects that are NPM packages themselves that can be built and deployed separately. That's where it began to fall down. But the project still most definitely uses "npm install", "npm start", and such. It's just the build component of issuing "npm run build" just shells out to "make -r" to build everything in the right order, in an incremental fashion, and to get it where it needs to be. There are many reasons behind this modular architecture that I never went into in the post for good reasons. And like I said, I would be sad if lots of projects thought all-the-sudden it was a good idea to do it :P. All that said, over the last 10+ years, I've grown increasingly tired of new frameworks coming out every 18 months (or less) that simply re-invent the wheel, but do it in a different way. I think there are plenty of situations where Make would perfectly suffice yet people immediately pull in a code-based build tool with tons of dependencies because it's what "everybody is using now."
hyperpape 9y ago
JavaScript needs a build system: https://tomdale.net/2017/04/making-the-jump/ https://tomdale.net/2017/04/making-the-jump/

by orclev 9y ago

rekado 9y ago

You wrote: > I'm aware of Guix, but that's probably an extreme example, most people probably aren't willing to sandbox literally their entire OS install, plus it's entirely unreasonable to require a particular OS in order to handle dependencies of your project. It shouldn't matter what OS I'm using (within reason), the project should have an automated way to install any dependencies it requires. Guix is just a package manager, not an operating system. The Guix System Distribution, on the other hand, is a GNU system. You can use Guix on any GNU+Linux system; you do not need GuixSD for that.

jolson88 9y ago

Author here. Great feedback! Thanks for taking the time to share it :). If I were creating a JavaScript library package that I was just going to push up to npm, I don't think I'd use Make either. yes, Typescript adds a wrinkle, but like you mention, that can all be handled by npm scripts as well. If it was just a JavaScript library, I'd definitely just use npm scripts and call out to eslint, and other tools just fine and not be any less happy. However, big front-end applications I think are starting to become more and more complex and can benefit from this. Part of the reason is perhaps more because of the lack-of-functionality around incremental builds in the compilers themselves (thinking less/sass/minify/uglify/etc., this is where I've seen people usually fall back to using Gulp). As the application becomes larger, I think the lack of incremental build becomes more and more of a tax on the developer because the builds become longer and longer (I've worked on several projects like that). I think perhaps the biggest impact on this project where Make is used had more to do with the modular project architecture than anything else. If it weren't for that, I'm not sure I'd ever even think of Make. And frankly, I think a modular project structure in a single github repository like this project uses is most likely not the right solution (or even a good idea) for a vast number of JavaScript/TypeScript projects out there. When the article talks about dependencies, it is more talking about dependencies within the project itself (due to the modular architecture). Before I switched it over to Make, it was using a combination of preinstall, postinstall, and custom "prestart" scripts to do everything in the right order because it wasn't as simple as using `npm link` or doing a single npm install in the root of the project. These various scripts become a total mishmash of different approaches and it became increasingly difficult to understand and visualize what was being built when and in what order. It wasn't uncommon to run into issues as well where one project would be `npm install`'d before it's dependencies were actually ready to be used (since they hadn't been compiled and packaged yet). With that said, Make in this project doesn't install dependencies in the sense that I think you are discussing. This project is most definitely a Node.js project and uses npm for all that stuff. It's just within the project itself, there are sub-projects that are NPM packages themselves that can be built and deployed separately. That's where it began to fall down. But the project still most definitely uses "npm install", "npm start", and such. It's just the build component of issuing "npm run build" just shells out to "make -r" to build everything in the right order, in an incremental fashion, and to get it where it needs to be. There are many reasons behind this modular architecture that I never went into in the post for good reasons. And like I said, I would be sad if lots of projects thought all-the-sudden it was a good idea to do it :P. All that said, over the last 10+ years, I've grown increasingly tired of new frameworks coming out every 18 months (or less) that simply re-invent the wheel, but do it in a different way. I think there are plenty of situations where Make would perfectly suffice yet people immediately pull in a code-based build tool with tons of dependencies because it's what "everybody is using now."

hyperpape 9y ago

JavaScript needs a build system: https://tomdale.net/2017/04/making-the-jump/ https://tomdale.net/2017/04/making-the-jump/