11 ms·

Higher Education Erodes

63 points by simonsarris 9y ago

Multicomp 9y ago
Well duh. Between cliques, crazy parties, and general irresponsibility, I ended up treating getting my bachelor's degree as I treated my HS diploma: that place I have to go to for four years while avoiding just about every so-called 'social engagement' that takes place after 5pm. Of course students will need the requirements nerfed down to nothing - when only three or four other people besides me got enough sleep at night to be awake at the 8AM class, who can blame the schools for trying to adjust their expectations of these students?
- notfromhere 9y ago
  that sounds like a terrible way to do college
  - baldfat 9y ago
    I worked 3 years as a Resident Director. I blame the low academic standards for this way of college. People drop out of college just because they can't get to their seats for class on time and can't hand in assignments. The cost of failing to do these things don't really kick in federally till after their sophomore year. I can't tell you how many people were dumbfounded that their 1.25 GPA meant they had to go to community college to bring up their GPA before they could continue the "College Life." Or they just bum around the college for 2 years + working a mind numbing job. I have had a few success stories in my years in college life. I kind of hate seeing young adults throwing away and just wouldn't let their lack of life skills destroy their potential. It usually meant a meeting in my office where I have backing powder and hydrogenation peroxide and me knocking on their dorm door at 8 AM for a month.
    - balsam 9y ago
      Lol are the chemicals for getting rid of their smells? (Did you learn chemistry in a German environment, btw?)
    - spraak 9y ago
      > where I have backing powder and hydrogenation peroxide What's that for?
      - baldfat 9y ago
        Example of Potential. If you have opportunity and ability but you don't combine the two you don't get the potential from chemistry. Just like their wasted opportunity that is their college career. ALSO it helps with the smell of unwashed clothes, and poor hygiene (Especially smelly hair I LEARNED TO HATE THAT SMELL). I would also boil white vinegar in my tea pot when the smell got really bad.
taylodl 9y ago
Shouldn't the market take care of this? Apparently there are colleges willing to "dumb-down" their curriculum to maintain graduation rates, but those colleges will become a black mark on one's CV and so the good students would choose not to attend those colleges, right?
- sbenj 9y ago
  Actually, I think the market has created this. To me it looks like universities have moved from things like subjects that represent the apex of current human knowledge (hard sciences, philosophy, literature...) to a far more vocationally focused curriculum (business, marketing, game design, hospitality...). To me this looks like a loss of idealism and a move towards a market idea of what sorts of things make up valuable knowledge. It also seems like a real loss of something important.
- spoiledtechie 9y ago
  Shouldn't the market take care of this? Only if students can pick their HS, rather than be placed in one by their zip code. Bad schools, make bad students, but students can't leave bad schools, due to their zipcodes... Education reform on zipcodes is a MUST.
  - ZoeZoeBee 9y ago
    School of choice has been the law of the land in most states for a while now. http://ecs.force.com/mbdata/mbquestRT?rep=OE1601 http://ecs.force.com/mbdata/mbquestRT?rep=OE1601
    - brewdad 9y ago
      It really depends though. In my state, schools will allow inter-district transfers but only if there are students wishing to leave the "good" school to attend the "bad" one. In practice, this means that there might be a dozen openings for 10,000 students who might apply to transfer. If you aren't a future Rhodes Scholar or Div 1 football superstar, there are no transfer options.
- 9y ago
dsfyu404ed 9y ago
> job descriptions and society do not have the luxury of dumbing themselves down too much Um, yes they do. It's called training. It used to be a thing back when HS diplomas were like 2yr degrees were like 4yr degrees
thebiglebrewski 9y ago
This is just really sad to me. The saddest thing - I can't even imagine a world where the current administration in power in the US gives a sh)t about this, at all. We're f)cked in a few years because other countries care so much more about the important things.
- 5trokerac3 9y ago
  We've had decades to turn this around. Neither party gives a shit. In fact, they both directly benefit from a drop in critical thinking ability among the general populace. I truly believe the next generation's elite will primarily be those whose parent's were smart enough and well-to-do enough to take them out of one size fits all public education and put them in Socratic, Montessori, or some other alternate school.
  - thebiglebrewski 9y ago
    ...do you really think that neither party gives a shit though? These days I kind of find that hard to believe, at least as far as the people in the White House now...
    - 5trokerac3 9y ago
      Well, love or have DeVos's plans, she's trying to change the status quo, while we spent the last 16 years doubling down on it.
      - thebiglebrewski 9y ago
        Haha wait though, why is good to "change the status quo" if it results in deep cuts to public school funding (in support of "school choice")? https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/trumps-first-full-education-budget-deep-cuts-to-public-school-programs-in-pursuit-of-school-choice/2017/05/17/2a25a2cc-3a41-11e7-8854-21f359183e8c_story.html?utm_term=.d6ab9fa4aecb https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/trumps-first-... Is this what you're saying? To talk about my views a little, I disagree with the whole, "No Child Left Behind" thing and increased standardized testing. I think we need to worry more about kids getting into what they're learning and learning all the critical skills they need like reading comprehension, algebra/math, critical thinking, etc, rather than focusing on test results (which don't seem to support that goal). Yeah, change the status quo, but the change she's supporting don't seem to help the issue we're discussing here - unless you have some contrary sources? Down to hear about them.
program_whiz 9y ago
This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes. Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated. As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, pursue higher education, and have the highest paying / stable jobs of any culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... Either you are racist and think "asians are better than everyone else", or you have to concede that culture and virtues are the cause -- since they too are in the same education system. They simply emphasize the right priorities, convey those to children, and teach functional life skills (conscientiousness, hard work, etc).
- dforrestwilson 9y ago
  Within the context of a stable democracy founded upon a legacy of Judeo-Christian values which encourages individualism, yes this is true. I think that's the winning combination personally.
  - jhoechtl 9y ago
    Care to elaborate? I fail to see the context yet your idea sounds interesting.
    - dforrestwilson 9y ago
      Western European culture in particular appears to have encouraged a degree of reward for individualism and self-advancement which Eastern cultures (for whatever reason) have not been able to sustain. Corruption and favoritism are also more commonly accepted, in part I suspect due to the influence of Confucianism and Buddhism. This tends to result in societies with less-democratic structures which ultimately entrench social status. Most of us have probably had a college class or two with foreign students from Asia who somehow passed the very tough English component of the GMAT or other standardized test, yet barely spoke English. I certainly had a few such folks in mine. My intuition would be that test scores matter quite a bit, but honestly achieving them may not matter as much. Social mobility is higher here in the U.S. than most Asian cultures, but we put a greater emphasis on honestly achieving it (or did in the past anyway). Combine that with an Asian cultural emphasis around testing/studying and I think you get an interesting dynamic. Just my perspective.
tw1010 9y ago
I bet the US will end up fine in the end though due to draining the brains of other countries.
- Dirlewanger 9y ago
  draining the brains of other countries...who then go right back to said countries after they finish their education.
jseliger 9y ago
I've written this before, but part of the problem is that "college" means such a wide array of institutions, experiences, and instruction that it's almost meaningless: https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-elizabeth-armstrong-and-laura-hamilton https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-eliz... . That being said, it's definitely true that the college system has evolved to perpetuate itself, as the author writes: Cal State is setting an example for the re-definition of “college readiness” towards “willingness to sit tight and pay the cash.” I also like to tell students that college is a multiplier of their own motivation and actions. If students don't read (and many apparently don't: https://jakeseliger.com/2017/08/28/igen-jean-m-twenge-the-kids-arent-all-right/ https://jakeseliger.com/2017/08/28/igen-jean-m-twenge-the-ki...) then they aren't going to get that much out of college. A lot of their experience is up to them.
- sdenton4 9y ago
  Yeah, the article spends a bunch of verbiage handwringing about standards at community colleges, which is not representative of higher education generally. Honestly, we do have a huge trade school system in the US, certainly not enough to handle all of the lower skilled people who 'should' be in them; community college is the closest large scale analog to a trade school system is the US. (And, arguably, we want or woodworkers to understand basic algebra, too, if we don't want or couches breaking...)
Klockan 9y ago
The real problem is that if you need a person who knows things like reading, writing and basic maths then you better ask for a 4 year degree since high school graduates are no longer expected to know those things. This is a huge problem for all of those who actually learn the things you should in high school since they will be forced to pay a ton of money and spend 4 years just to show that they aren't idiots.
tzs 9y ago
There's a lot of misunderstanding of what Cal State is proposing doing with with students who need remedial help. They are NOT changing to give credit for high school level courses, or lowering standards so that people not ready for college can pass their courses. What they are doing is simply changing the way they provide remedial help to those who need it. The current way: those students spend a year taking only remedial classes, which are below college level and provide no college credit. The new way: remedial help will be integrated with the regular college level courses. How exactly that is done is up to the individual campuses. Some might offer slower sections, taking say two semesters to cover a subject instead of one. Some might offer extra tutoring.
rkido 9y ago
The purpose of higher education isn't to educate the mob. It's to protect education -- the very notion of being educated -- from the mob. That so few schools recognize this doesn't mean "higher education is eroding"; higher education has always been a niche of a niche.

63 points by simonsarris 9y ago

Well duh. Between cliques, crazy parties, and general irresponsibility, I ended up treating getting my bachelor's degree as I treated my HS diploma: that place I have to go to for four years while avoiding just about every so-called 'social engagement' that takes place after 5pm. Of course students will need the requirements nerfed down to nothing - when only three or four other people besides me got enough sleep at night to be awake at the 8AM class, who can blame the schools for trying to adjust their expectations of these students?

notfromhere 9y ago
that sounds like a terrible way to do college
- baldfat 9y ago
  I worked 3 years as a Resident Director. I blame the low academic standards for this way of college. People drop out of college just because they can't get to their seats for class on time and can't hand in assignments. The cost of failing to do these things don't really kick in federally till after their sophomore year. I can't tell you how many people were dumbfounded that their 1.25 GPA meant they had to go to community college to bring up their GPA before they could continue the "College Life." Or they just bum around the college for 2 years + working a mind numbing job. I have had a few success stories in my years in college life. I kind of hate seeing young adults throwing away and just wouldn't let their lack of life skills destroy their potential. It usually meant a meeting in my office where I have backing powder and hydrogenation peroxide and me knocking on their dorm door at 8 AM for a month.
  - balsam 9y ago
    Lol are the chemicals for getting rid of their smells? (Did you learn chemistry in a German environment, btw?)
  - spraak 9y ago
    > where I have backing powder and hydrogenation peroxide What's that for?
    - baldfat 9y ago
      Example of Potential. If you have opportunity and ability but you don't combine the two you don't get the potential from chemistry. Just like their wasted opportunity that is their college career. ALSO it helps with the smell of unwashed clothes, and poor hygiene (Especially smelly hair I LEARNED TO HATE THAT SMELL). I would also boil white vinegar in my tea pot when the smell got really bad.

taylodl 9y ago

Shouldn't the market take care of this? Apparently there are colleges willing to "dumb-down" their curriculum to maintain graduation rates, but those colleges will become a black mark on one's CV and so the good students would choose not to attend those colleges, right?

sbenj 9y ago
Actually, I think the market has created this. To me it looks like universities have moved from things like subjects that represent the apex of current human knowledge (hard sciences, philosophy, literature...) to a far more vocationally focused curriculum (business, marketing, game design, hospitality...). To me this looks like a loss of idealism and a move towards a market idea of what sorts of things make up valuable knowledge. It also seems like a real loss of something important.
spoiledtechie 9y ago
Shouldn't the market take care of this? Only if students can pick their HS, rather than be placed in one by their zip code. Bad schools, make bad students, but students can't leave bad schools, due to their zipcodes... Education reform on zipcodes is a MUST.
- ZoeZoeBee 9y ago
  School of choice has been the law of the land in most states for a while now. http://ecs.force.com/mbdata/mbquestRT?rep=OE1601 http://ecs.force.com/mbdata/mbquestRT?rep=OE1601
  - brewdad 9y ago
    It really depends though. In my state, schools will allow inter-district transfers but only if there are students wishing to leave the "good" school to attend the "bad" one. In practice, this means that there might be a dozen openings for 10,000 students who might apply to transfer. If you aren't a future Rhodes Scholar or Div 1 football superstar, there are no transfer options.
9y ago

dsfyu404ed 9y ago

> job descriptions and society do not have the luxury of dumbing themselves down too much Um, yes they do. It's called training. It used to be a thing back when HS diplomas were like 2yr degrees were like 4yr degrees

thebiglebrewski 9y ago

This is just really sad to me. The saddest thing - I can't even imagine a world where the current administration in power in the US gives a sh)t about this, at all. We're f)cked in a few years because other countries care so much more about the important things.

5trokerac3 9y ago
We've had decades to turn this around. Neither party gives a shit. In fact, they both directly benefit from a drop in critical thinking ability among the general populace. I truly believe the next generation's elite will primarily be those whose parent's were smart enough and well-to-do enough to take them out of one size fits all public education and put them in Socratic, Montessori, or some other alternate school.
- thebiglebrewski 9y ago
  ...do you really think that neither party gives a shit though? These days I kind of find that hard to believe, at least as far as the people in the White House now...
  - 5trokerac3 9y ago
    Well, love or have DeVos's plans, she's trying to change the status quo, while we spent the last 16 years doubling down on it.
    - thebiglebrewski 9y ago
      Haha wait though, why is good to "change the status quo" if it results in deep cuts to public school funding (in support of "school choice")? https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/trumps-first-full-education-budget-deep-cuts-to-public-school-programs-in-pursuit-of-school-choice/2017/05/17/2a25a2cc-3a41-11e7-8854-21f359183e8c_story.html?utm_term=.d6ab9fa4aecb https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/trumps-first-... Is this what you're saying? To talk about my views a little, I disagree with the whole, "No Child Left Behind" thing and increased standardized testing. I think we need to worry more about kids getting into what they're learning and learning all the critical skills they need like reading comprehension, algebra/math, critical thinking, etc, rather than focusing on test results (which don't seem to support that goal). Yeah, change the status quo, but the change she's supporting don't seem to help the issue we're discussing here - unless you have some contrary sources? Down to hear about them.

program_whiz 9y ago

This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes. Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated. As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, pursue higher education, and have the highest paying / stable jobs of any culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... Either you are racist and think "asians are better than everyone else", or you have to concede that culture and virtues are the cause -- since they too are in the same education system. They simply emphasize the right priorities, convey those to children, and teach functional life skills (conscientiousness, hard work, etc).

dforrestwilson 9y ago
Within the context of a stable democracy founded upon a legacy of Judeo-Christian values which encourages individualism, yes this is true. I think that's the winning combination personally.
- jhoechtl 9y ago
  Care to elaborate? I fail to see the context yet your idea sounds interesting.
  - dforrestwilson 9y ago
    Western European culture in particular appears to have encouraged a degree of reward for individualism and self-advancement which Eastern cultures (for whatever reason) have not been able to sustain. Corruption and favoritism are also more commonly accepted, in part I suspect due to the influence of Confucianism and Buddhism. This tends to result in societies with less-democratic structures which ultimately entrench social status. Most of us have probably had a college class or two with foreign students from Asia who somehow passed the very tough English component of the GMAT or other standardized test, yet barely spoke English. I certainly had a few such folks in mine. My intuition would be that test scores matter quite a bit, but honestly achieving them may not matter as much. Social mobility is higher here in the U.S. than most Asian cultures, but we put a greater emphasis on honestly achieving it (or did in the past anyway). Combine that with an Asian cultural emphasis around testing/studying and I think you get an interesting dynamic. Just my perspective.

tw1010 9y ago

I bet the US will end up fine in the end though due to draining the brains of other countries.

Dirlewanger 9y ago
draining the brains of other countries...who then go right back to said countries after they finish their education.

jseliger 9y ago

I've written this before, but part of the problem is that "college" means such a wide array of institutions, experiences, and instruction that it's almost meaningless: https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-elizabeth-armstrong-and-laura-hamilton https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-eliz... . That being said, it's definitely true that the college system has evolved to perpetuate itself, as the author writes: Cal State is setting an example for the re-definition of “college readiness” towards “willingness to sit tight and pay the cash.” I also like to tell students that college is a multiplier of their own motivation and actions. If students don't read (and many apparently don't: https://jakeseliger.com/2017/08/28/igen-jean-m-twenge-the-kids-arent-all-right/ https://jakeseliger.com/2017/08/28/igen-jean-m-twenge-the-ki...) then they aren't going to get that much out of college. A lot of their experience is up to them.

sdenton4 9y ago
Yeah, the article spends a bunch of verbiage handwringing about standards at community colleges, which is not representative of higher education generally. Honestly, we do have a huge trade school system in the US, certainly not enough to handle all of the lower skilled people who 'should' be in them; community college is the closest large scale analog to a trade school system is the US. (And, arguably, we want or woodworkers to understand basic algebra, too, if we don't want or couches breaking...)

Klockan 9y ago

The real problem is that if you need a person who knows things like reading, writing and basic maths then you better ask for a 4 year degree since high school graduates are no longer expected to know those things. This is a huge problem for all of those who actually learn the things you should in high school since they will be forced to pay a ton of money and spend 4 years just to show that they aren't idiots.

tzs 9y ago

There's a lot of misunderstanding of what Cal State is proposing doing with with students who need remedial help. They are NOT changing to give credit for high school level courses, or lowering standards so that people not ready for college can pass their courses. What they are doing is simply changing the way they provide remedial help to those who need it. The current way: those students spend a year taking only remedial classes, which are below college level and provide no college credit. The new way: remedial help will be integrated with the regular college level courses. How exactly that is done is up to the individual campuses. Some might offer slower sections, taking say two semesters to cover a subject instead of one. Some might offer extra tutoring.

rkido 9y ago

The purpose of higher education isn't to educate the mob. It's to protect education -- the very notion of being educated -- from the mob. That so few schools recognize this doesn't mean "higher education is eroding"; higher education has always been a niche of a niche.