4 ms·

The only speech that needs protection is the icky speech. Absolutely no one cares to suppress palatable, well meaning, everyone agrees to it speech.

waynenilsen 9y ago
related https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15043023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15043023 > Is it not clear that free speech as a practical tactic, not only as an abstract principle, demands defense of the rights of all who are attacked in order to obtain the rights of any?
- throwanem 9y ago
  I don't see why it should be a matter of controversy to state that Anglin is to the cause of free speech advocacy as NAMBLA was to the early gay movement - only much more so, and deliberately besides. Of course, the early gay movement eventually had the good sense to jettison the pedophilia advocates who attempted to ride its coattails into public legitimacy.
throwanem 9y ago
It's possible to fail "palatable, well meaning, everyone agrees to it", without also meeting or even approaching the nonpareil standard of general worthlessness to which Anglin seems at such pains to hold himself. The matter is in any case also, I think primarily, one of pragmatism. Even the most hard-line free speech absolutist can't defend Anglin without being made radioactive by mere association; thus, by his actions, he forces everyone around him to choose between principle and livelihood. It seems to me little wonder that everyone of import chooses the latter.
- angersock 9y ago
  > It seems to me little wonder that everyone of import chooses the latter. "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--because I was not a Socialist" and so forth. And no, the irony is not lost on me. Systems-minded people not blinded by ideology have natural sympathies to those causes, because the same mechanisms used to justify punching Nazis and kicking fascists off the internet can just as easily be turned against things that we care about.
  - confounded 9y ago
    What does your systems-mind propose? Nationalizing all companies providing web infrastructure, so that they can be complelled to host curb stompings and child pornography?
  - throwanem 9y ago
    Absolutism has the virtue of simplicity, to be sure. The human world, in my experience, has not.
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      Absolutism has the virtue of simplicity, to be sure. The human world, in my experience, has not. The judicial system is pragmatically absolutist in its operation. It's quite complicated, it's not perfect, but it does work. The system of rights it's constructed on is necessary to prevent tyranny. Look up and read the history around the Magna Carta and the founding of the United States.
- zlynx 9y ago
  "Even the most hard-line free speech absolutist can't defend Anglin without being made radioactive by mere association" If only our education system would manage to teach logic. Instead we have generations of people who can't understand how anyone can argue in defense of one part without being part of the whole thing. It's as if "evil people drink water and you drink water, so you're evil" is an actual argument these days and no one sees why that is fallacious and stupid.
thex10 9y ago
This is a lazy statement. In reality it appears to depend on who "everyone" is. For example, "everyone's" "reasonable" photo of a mother breastfeeding is somebody's cause for banning.
ctdonath 9y ago
"We are the folk song army. Everyone of us cares. We all hate poverty, war, and injustice, Unlike the rest of you squares." - Tom Lehrer, The Folk Song Army Lyrics
stcredzero 9y ago
Absolutely no one cares to suppress palatable, well meaning, everyone agrees to it speech. One of the demonstrators from the Bret Weinstein debacle at Evergreen can be seen and heard on the Vice video saying, "...F### your Free Speech!" That is pretty much what the demonstrators and those aligned with them did to Bret Weinstein -- all just for saying, Maybe there's a problem when you demand that certain ethnic groups "absent" themselves? Why would anyone who stands against racism ask that of a Jewish man? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ys2ihv_wSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ys2ihv_wSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cMYfxOFBBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cMYfxOFBBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fEAPcgxnyY&t=327 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fEAPcgxnyY&t=327

waynenilsen 9y ago

related https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15043023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15043023 > Is it not clear that free speech as a practical tactic, not only as an abstract principle, demands defense of the rights of all who are attacked in order to obtain the rights of any?

throwanem 9y ago
I don't see why it should be a matter of controversy to state that Anglin is to the cause of free speech advocacy as NAMBLA was to the early gay movement - only much more so, and deliberately besides. Of course, the early gay movement eventually had the good sense to jettison the pedophilia advocates who attempted to ride its coattails into public legitimacy.

throwanem 9y ago

It's possible to fail "palatable, well meaning, everyone agrees to it", without also meeting or even approaching the nonpareil standard of general worthlessness to which Anglin seems at such pains to hold himself. The matter is in any case also, I think primarily, one of pragmatism. Even the most hard-line free speech absolutist can't defend Anglin without being made radioactive by mere association; thus, by his actions, he forces everyone around him to choose between principle and livelihood. It seems to me little wonder that everyone of import chooses the latter.

angersock 9y ago
> It seems to me little wonder that everyone of import chooses the latter. "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--because I was not a Socialist" and so forth. And no, the irony is not lost on me. Systems-minded people not blinded by ideology have natural sympathies to those causes, because the same mechanisms used to justify punching Nazis and kicking fascists off the internet can just as easily be turned against things that we care about.
- confounded 9y ago
  What does your systems-mind propose? Nationalizing all companies providing web infrastructure, so that they can be complelled to host curb stompings and child pornography?
- throwanem 9y ago
  Absolutism has the virtue of simplicity, to be sure. The human world, in my experience, has not.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    Absolutism has the virtue of simplicity, to be sure. The human world, in my experience, has not. The judicial system is pragmatically absolutist in its operation. It's quite complicated, it's not perfect, but it does work. The system of rights it's constructed on is necessary to prevent tyranny. Look up and read the history around the Magna Carta and the founding of the United States.
zlynx 9y ago
"Even the most hard-line free speech absolutist can't defend Anglin without being made radioactive by mere association" If only our education system would manage to teach logic. Instead we have generations of people who can't understand how anyone can argue in defense of one part without being part of the whole thing. It's as if "evil people drink water and you drink water, so you're evil" is an actual argument these days and no one sees why that is fallacious and stupid.

thex10 9y ago

This is a lazy statement. In reality it appears to depend on who "everyone" is. For example, "everyone's" "reasonable" photo of a mother breastfeeding is somebody's cause for banning.

ctdonath 9y ago

"We are the folk song army. Everyone of us cares. We all hate poverty, war, and injustice, Unlike the rest of you squares." - Tom Lehrer, The Folk Song Army Lyrics

stcredzero 9y ago

Absolutely no one cares to suppress palatable, well meaning, everyone agrees to it speech. One of the demonstrators from the Bret Weinstein debacle at Evergreen can be seen and heard on the Vice video saying, "...F### your Free Speech!" That is pretty much what the demonstrators and those aligned with them did to Bret Weinstein -- all just for saying, Maybe there's a problem when you demand that certain ethnic groups "absent" themselves? Why would anyone who stands against racism ask that of a Jewish man? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ys2ihv_wSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ys2ihv_wSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cMYfxOFBBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cMYfxOFBBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fEAPcgxnyY&t=327 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fEAPcgxnyY&t=327