3 ms·

It's got to the point where "free speech" has become a dog whistle for the alt-right. Taking the concept back from them is going to be hard.

by moomin 9y ago

patrickg_zill 9y ago
Yes, taking back the concept of free speech is especially difficult, when you don't believe in it yourself.
- moomin 9y ago
  Doesn't seem to have stopped the alt-right.
0xBA5ED 9y ago
Sounds like you're saying one particular group should control the concept of free speech at the expense of another group or groups.
- moomin 9y ago
  Nah, I'm saying that we need to talk about free speech in the context of diverse viewpoints and needs and stop prioritising fascists. It's ok, I knew this would be controversial.
anon1385 9y ago
That's not a new thing. The fascist Oswald Mosley complained about a lack of free speech when he was repeatedly prevented from speaking and marching in predominantly Jewish parts of London in the 30s by large violent crowds[1]. Post war there were very organised groups dedicated to disrupting fascist "free speech", like 43 Group which was made up of Jewish ex-servicemen[2]. Again in the 60s Mosley cited "free speech" when his fascist rallies were violently disrupted[3]. Fascists have been using "free speech" as a shield since the beginning, and similarly liberals were handwringing about the fascists right to "free speech" while fascists beat up and killed Jews and other minorities and burned down synagogs. The liberals were wrong in the 30s to tolerate fascism and they're wrong now. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street being the most famous example [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43_Group [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRS4NR_BZ1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRS4NR_BZ1w and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Ef3WYWJYc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Ef3WYWJYc for example
angersock 9y ago
> It's got to the point where "free speech" has become a dog whistle for the alt-right. Because pride parades and Occupy protests don't benefit from free speech at all, right? It's more concerning to see the meme of "I don't like what these people say so I'm going to add the 'dogwhistle' tag to it so other Right Thinking people will know to avoid/condemn it without engaging properly". Free speech is critical to the success (such as it is) of the United States today. Deciding to self-cripple because some small groups we don't like are using it is absurd.
- moomin 9y ago
  You're kind of making my point for me. Occupy protestors regularly got assaulted and arrested. To the best of my knowledge, none of them murdered a woman with a car. As I say, it's not about speech. Speech is just a dog-whistle for what this is really about.
  - angersock 9y ago
    > Occupy protestors regularly got assaulted and arrested. To the best of my knowledge, none of them murdered a woman with a car. Black-bloc doing "peaceful protest" have attacked and wounded others and set fire to cars--but I'll still support the free speech of their more lawful compatriots. And before you go "but but but they killed someone!", I'll point out that being less effective at committing violence doesn't give one side the moral highground. I will also happily argue that it was one rogue nutjob who went too far--a courtesy often extended by folks like you to, say, extremist Muslim immigrants in Europe and other places when the exact same sorts of attacks have occurred. > Speech is just a dog-whistle for what this is really about. You (and people like you!) sound increasingly like Joseph McCarthy--and you're hurting America, every time you try to equate fundamental rights and their defense with Evil just because you don't like some of the people who are exercising their rights. Why do you hate freedom?
    - moomin 9y ago
      I'm glad we're clear that your support for black civil rights doesn't go as far as supporting Martin Luther King. And I'm also glad we're clear that you're prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to fascists. And that you think that a belief in fascism and white supremacy and a belief in Islam are appropriate things to compare. And there's a difference between defending freedom and hating it, but I think it's clear you already know that as well.

It's got to the point where "free speech" has become a dog whistle for the alt-right. Taking the concept back from them is going to be hard.

by moomin 9y ago

It's got to the point where "free speech" has become a dog whistle for the alt-right. Taking the concept back from them is going to be hard.

patrickg_zill 9y ago

Yes, taking back the concept of free speech is especially difficult, when you don't believe in it yourself.

moomin 9y ago
Doesn't seem to have stopped the alt-right.

0xBA5ED 9y ago

Sounds like you're saying one particular group should control the concept of free speech at the expense of another group or groups.

moomin 9y ago
Nah, I'm saying that we need to talk about free speech in the context of diverse viewpoints and needs and stop prioritising fascists. It's ok, I knew this would be controversial.

anon1385 9y ago

That's not a new thing. The fascist Oswald Mosley complained about a lack of free speech when he was repeatedly prevented from speaking and marching in predominantly Jewish parts of London in the 30s by large violent crowds[1]. Post war there were very organised groups dedicated to disrupting fascist "free speech", like 43 Group which was made up of Jewish ex-servicemen[2]. Again in the 60s Mosley cited "free speech" when his fascist rallies were violently disrupted[3]. Fascists have been using "free speech" as a shield since the beginning, and similarly liberals were handwringing about the fascists right to "free speech" while fascists beat up and killed Jews and other minorities and burned down synagogs. The liberals were wrong in the 30s to tolerate fascism and they're wrong now. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street being the most famous example [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43_Group [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRS4NR_BZ1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRS4NR_BZ1w and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Ef3WYWJYc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Ef3WYWJYc for example

angersock 9y ago

> It's got to the point where "free speech" has become a dog whistle for the alt-right. Because pride parades and Occupy protests don't benefit from free speech at all, right? It's more concerning to see the meme of "I don't like what these people say so I'm going to add the 'dogwhistle' tag to it so other Right Thinking people will know to avoid/condemn it without engaging properly". Free speech is critical to the success (such as it is) of the United States today. Deciding to self-cripple because some small groups we don't like are using it is absurd.

moomin 9y ago
You're kind of making my point for me. Occupy protestors regularly got assaulted and arrested. To the best of my knowledge, none of them murdered a woman with a car. As I say, it's not about speech. Speech is just a dog-whistle for what this is really about.
- angersock 9y ago
  > Occupy protestors regularly got assaulted and arrested. To the best of my knowledge, none of them murdered a woman with a car. Black-bloc doing "peaceful protest" have attacked and wounded others and set fire to cars--but I'll still support the free speech of their more lawful compatriots. And before you go "but but but they killed someone!", I'll point out that being less effective at committing violence doesn't give one side the moral highground. I will also happily argue that it was one rogue nutjob who went too far--a courtesy often extended by folks like you to, say, extremist Muslim immigrants in Europe and other places when the exact same sorts of attacks have occurred. > Speech is just a dog-whistle for what this is really about. You (and people like you!) sound increasingly like Joseph McCarthy--and you're hurting America, every time you try to equate fundamental rights and their defense with Evil just because you don't like some of the people who are exercising their rights. Why do you hate freedom?
  - moomin 9y ago
    I'm glad we're clear that your support for black civil rights doesn't go as far as supporting Martin Luther King. And I'm also glad we're clear that you're prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to fascists. And that you think that a belief in fascism and white supremacy and a belief in Islam are appropriate things to compare. And there's a difference between defending freedom and hating it, but I think it's clear you already know that as well.