9 ms·

> The old desire of building your identity around what you own instead of what you do is not going anywhere. Good for them picking up the extra money people hav

> The old desire of building your identity around what you own instead of what you do is not going anywhere. Good for them picking up the extra money people have. That's really spot on. We could have an incredibly fulfilling life while living frugally. Writing books, making art, creating new software, doing research, etc. Creating and understanding yourself better can be healing. Physical possessions like this pen is just so vain, shallow, and meaningless. Some of the happiest peoples' lives are built around shared experiences.

cthalupa 9y ago
>making art >this pen is just so vain, shallow, and meaningless. I hope you can see the contradiction here. These pens are the result of skills honed over time by people who are masters of their craft. These aren't mass produced items, and they will tailor basically every aspect of the pen to the customer. You're paying for the artistry, quality, and customization. These things are more expensive when not mass produced. Would I buy one? Not unless I just had a bunch of money that I had nothing else to do with. But for someone who talks about making art being a fulfilling venture, it doesn't make sense to scorn something that many people consider art.
- Retric 9y ago
  I find such things horribly wasteful even if I had unlimited disposable income. Run out of reasonable purchases and you can always just donate the rest. Remember, it's not expensive because that's what it costs to make it's expensive because that's what it takes to sell them.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    You could say the same thing about most other art and decorative object, if you don't find them attractive. I would tend to value Warhols and Pollocks in terms of their kindling ability, myself.
    - Retric 9y ago
      I mostly agree, stuff is very low on my list of interesting things. But, a painting could be shown to thousands a pen is a rather more personal indulgence.
- nabla9 9y ago
  >You're paying for the artistry, quality, and customization. That's not how pricing works. The price of the product is what customers pay, not how much it costs to manufacture. If you remove brand name and perception of luxury and rarity from these pens and say it's manufactured by some Vietnamese pop and son shop, the value drops into fraction what it was. It might cost $100 and be expensive pen but not hundreds or thousands like now.
- winter_blue 9y ago
  I don't think there's anything wrong about buying that pen; and I do think, yes, the artist has put a lot of effort into making a high-quality pen, so it is a beautiful expression of their creativity. The point I actually wanted to drill down was: "building your identity around what you own instead of what you do". I could've omitted my sentence on the pen. Buying a pen or any piece of art isn't vain. But it's sad when someone centers the life and builds their identity around physical possessions.
coldtea 9y ago
>We could have an incredibly fulfilling life while living frugally. And we could also live frugally while appreciating things of beauty and craft like those pens. I know people who don't have a car (and aren't rich) but chose to spend $5000 on art, or such things. >Writing books, making art, creating new software, doing research, etc. Well, if you have the money -- even enough to live with--, what would be the need of this frenetic activity? Writing books, making art, doing research etc? This seems vain too, in the "me, me, me, I should put my name out there, be known in the future, etc" sense. It's only that certain civilizations haven't been trained to recognize this as vein. What if you don't create anything? Who said people have to? Why not just enjoy life? Work if you have to, have fun with friends and family, have some nice food and drink, walk, etc.
- Emma_Goldman 9y ago
  The point is that the desire to climb the status ladder by purchasing conspicuously expensive, useless commodities is generated by a pretty deformed set of social relations. It is a product of a very shallow capitalist culture, and has the effect of wasting productive capacity that could in the counter-factual be used to help people who need it. It's also philosophy 101: self-realisation is who you are and not what you own. Go read Marcus Auerelius, Erich Fromm, etc.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >The point is that the desire to climb the status ladder by purchasing conspicuously expensive, useless commodities is generated by a pretty deformed set of social relations. It is a product of a very shallow capitalist culture I disagree. People liked rare and expensive things in all cultures since forever -- from ancient Egypt and Greece, to African tribes to Polynesian island nations. What's unique in modern capitalist culture is the commercialization of everything and anything and the constant consumption -- not the appreciation of finely crafted / expensive stuff. In some ways a Lamborghini is a great achievement of engineering and art, for example. I also don't think people buying those pens are doing so because of a "desire to climb the status ladder". That might be true for those buying a $1000 suit or $300 shoes, but those paying $3000 for a fountain pen have already climbed it.
manarth 9y ago
Physical possessions like this pen is just so vain, shallow, and meaningless. Have you thought this through, to the point where you have a cut-off? Is it the cheapest? Is a 12-cent biro vain, because there's a 10-cent biro? Is it a $10 fountain pen, because you could have bought a cheap BIC? Is a $30 fountain pen OK, but a $50 fountain pen is shallow and meaningless? Where do you draw the line?
- Emma_Goldman 9y ago
  There is no cut-off line because symbolic capital is not something that has a mathematical formula. The ways in which people express status varies from social group to group, and from situation to situation. The idea that a claim is only valid if it is a closed proposition that applies under all circumstances is a bad one. You need to undertake an ethnography, sociological study, etc., to understand how commodities function in cultural hierarchies in any particular case.
  - manarth 9y ago
    The ways in which people express status varies from social group to group So does this notion only apply to people who demonstrate this status? Does it apply to someone who buys an expensive fountain pen, keeps it in their desk drawer, and uses it to write, but doesn't talk/boast about it? It seems a bit of a sweeping statement to claim that owning a pen is vain, and could use a bit more clarification/justification to show the basis for making a claim like that. If any such claim relies on ethnographic or sociological studies, then wouldn't it be appropriate to cite those when making such a claim? Without that, such a claim could justifiably be described as reverse snobbery.
    - Emma_Goldman 9y ago
      I never claimed that 'owning a pen is vain'. I said that one can only understand its cultural significance through careful sociological reflection. That is a truism to me. "If any such claim relies on ethnographic or sociological studies, then wouldn't it be appropriate to cite those when making such a claim?" I think you might have wrong end of the stick. I have no idea if there are any studies on the cultural capital of pens. The point is a general methodological one - we can only understand the 'status' that any given commodity is supposed to possess by first investigating the particular ways in which it functions in a definite social group. "So does this notion only apply to people who demonstrate this status?" Everyone is always 'demonstrating status' all of the time so I hardly think this is enough to condemn someone. But to get to the point: obviously buying a $4000 pen is a conspicuous symbol of status by which to differentiate yourself from other people. IMO it is utterly grotesque: in a world based on radical inequality where billions of people live miserable, indigent lives, buying a pen for that amount suggests that you care more about appearing to be rich that about helping anyone. It is a farcical, individualist act of petty self-congratulation.
JohnStrange 9y ago
I don't know, I'm writing books, do science for a living, make music (2 albums out), and write software, but I also enjoy researching, buying and owning good and sometimes rare products such as waterproof socks, mechanical keyboards, notebooks with numbered pages, fountain pens, semi-expensive watches, special bags, etc. -- within my financial limits, of course. You don't have to choose one or the other, that would be a false dichotomy.
GuB-42 9y ago
There is nothing wrong with physical possession like this pen. It just depends on what you make of them. There are guys who are just pen enthusiasts, and own these pens because it's their passion. They are often very interesting guys, like living encyclopedia of pens. They are some who like to own something precious as an extension of themselves. It's their pen, they have memories associated with it. Maybe they bought it when they finished their studies, or it was given by someone dear, or maybe it was carefully chosen because it matches ones personality. Pulling out this pen gives them feelings that a disposable BIC doesn't. Or maybe this pen was bought as a form of support. Because the owner maybe thinks that he should reward companies that do things by hands, or use certain materials or design, reasoning that if they don't buy, on one will, and this way of doing things will disappear. And this physical possession is not just a meaningless lump of material. More often then not, it is the result of hard work. I am often amazed at the engineering and craftsmanship behind everyday items. Even good marketing is worthy of respect. So don't belittle physical possessions.
notyourday 9y ago
> Physical possessions like this pen is just so vain, shallow, and meaningless. Did you type it on a mechanical keyboard?

cthalupa 9y ago

>making art >this pen is just so vain, shallow, and meaningless. I hope you can see the contradiction here. These pens are the result of skills honed over time by people who are masters of their craft. These aren't mass produced items, and they will tailor basically every aspect of the pen to the customer. You're paying for the artistry, quality, and customization. These things are more expensive when not mass produced. Would I buy one? Not unless I just had a bunch of money that I had nothing else to do with. But for someone who talks about making art being a fulfilling venture, it doesn't make sense to scorn something that many people consider art.

Retric 9y ago
I find such things horribly wasteful even if I had unlimited disposable income. Run out of reasonable purchases and you can always just donate the rest. Remember, it's not expensive because that's what it costs to make it's expensive because that's what it takes to sell them.
- mcguire 9y ago
  You could say the same thing about most other art and decorative object, if you don't find them attractive. I would tend to value Warhols and Pollocks in terms of their kindling ability, myself.
  - Retric 9y ago
    I mostly agree, stuff is very low on my list of interesting things. But, a painting could be shown to thousands a pen is a rather more personal indulgence.
nabla9 9y ago
>You're paying for the artistry, quality, and customization. That's not how pricing works. The price of the product is what customers pay, not how much it costs to manufacture. If you remove brand name and perception of luxury and rarity from these pens and say it's manufactured by some Vietnamese pop and son shop, the value drops into fraction what it was. It might cost $100 and be expensive pen but not hundreds or thousands like now.
winter_blue 9y ago
I don't think there's anything wrong about buying that pen; and I do think, yes, the artist has put a lot of effort into making a high-quality pen, so it is a beautiful expression of their creativity. The point I actually wanted to drill down was: "building your identity around what you own instead of what you do". I could've omitted my sentence on the pen. Buying a pen or any piece of art isn't vain. But it's sad when someone centers the life and builds their identity around physical possessions.

coldtea 9y ago

>We could have an incredibly fulfilling life while living frugally. And we could also live frugally while appreciating things of beauty and craft like those pens. I know people who don't have a car (and aren't rich) but chose to spend $5000 on art, or such things. >Writing books, making art, creating new software, doing research, etc. Well, if you have the money -- even enough to live with--, what would be the need of this frenetic activity? Writing books, making art, doing research etc? This seems vain too, in the "me, me, me, I should put my name out there, be known in the future, etc" sense. It's only that certain civilizations haven't been trained to recognize this as vein. What if you don't create anything? Who said people have to? Why not just enjoy life? Work if you have to, have fun with friends and family, have some nice food and drink, walk, etc.

Emma_Goldman 9y ago
The point is that the desire to climb the status ladder by purchasing conspicuously expensive, useless commodities is generated by a pretty deformed set of social relations. It is a product of a very shallow capitalist culture, and has the effect of wasting productive capacity that could in the counter-factual be used to help people who need it. It's also philosophy 101: self-realisation is who you are and not what you own. Go read Marcus Auerelius, Erich Fromm, etc.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >The point is that the desire to climb the status ladder by purchasing conspicuously expensive, useless commodities is generated by a pretty deformed set of social relations. It is a product of a very shallow capitalist culture I disagree. People liked rare and expensive things in all cultures since forever -- from ancient Egypt and Greece, to African tribes to Polynesian island nations. What's unique in modern capitalist culture is the commercialization of everything and anything and the constant consumption -- not the appreciation of finely crafted / expensive stuff. In some ways a Lamborghini is a great achievement of engineering and art, for example. I also don't think people buying those pens are doing so because of a "desire to climb the status ladder". That might be true for those buying a $1000 suit or $300 shoes, but those paying $3000 for a fountain pen have already climbed it.

manarth 9y ago

Physical possessions like this pen is just so vain, shallow, and meaningless. Have you thought this through, to the point where you have a cut-off? Is it the cheapest? Is a 12-cent biro vain, because there's a 10-cent biro? Is it a $10 fountain pen, because you could have bought a cheap BIC? Is a $30 fountain pen OK, but a $50 fountain pen is shallow and meaningless? Where do you draw the line?

Emma_Goldman 9y ago
There is no cut-off line because symbolic capital is not something that has a mathematical formula. The ways in which people express status varies from social group to group, and from situation to situation. The idea that a claim is only valid if it is a closed proposition that applies under all circumstances is a bad one. You need to undertake an ethnography, sociological study, etc., to understand how commodities function in cultural hierarchies in any particular case.
- manarth 9y ago
  The ways in which people express status varies from social group to group So does this notion only apply to people who demonstrate this status? Does it apply to someone who buys an expensive fountain pen, keeps it in their desk drawer, and uses it to write, but doesn't talk/boast about it? It seems a bit of a sweeping statement to claim that owning a pen is vain, and could use a bit more clarification/justification to show the basis for making a claim like that. If any such claim relies on ethnographic or sociological studies, then wouldn't it be appropriate to cite those when making such a claim? Without that, such a claim could justifiably be described as reverse snobbery.
  - Emma_Goldman 9y ago
    I never claimed that 'owning a pen is vain'. I said that one can only understand its cultural significance through careful sociological reflection. That is a truism to me. "If any such claim relies on ethnographic or sociological studies, then wouldn't it be appropriate to cite those when making such a claim?" I think you might have wrong end of the stick. I have no idea if there are any studies on the cultural capital of pens. The point is a general methodological one - we can only understand the 'status' that any given commodity is supposed to possess by first investigating the particular ways in which it functions in a definite social group. "So does this notion only apply to people who demonstrate this status?" Everyone is always 'demonstrating status' all of the time so I hardly think this is enough to condemn someone. But to get to the point: obviously buying a $4000 pen is a conspicuous symbol of status by which to differentiate yourself from other people. IMO it is utterly grotesque: in a world based on radical inequality where billions of people live miserable, indigent lives, buying a pen for that amount suggests that you care more about appearing to be rich that about helping anyone. It is a farcical, individualist act of petty self-congratulation.

JohnStrange 9y ago

I don't know, I'm writing books, do science for a living, make music (2 albums out), and write software, but I also enjoy researching, buying and owning good and sometimes rare products such as waterproof socks, mechanical keyboards, notebooks with numbered pages, fountain pens, semi-expensive watches, special bags, etc. -- within my financial limits, of course. You don't have to choose one or the other, that would be a false dichotomy.

GuB-42 9y ago

There is nothing wrong with physical possession like this pen. It just depends on what you make of them. There are guys who are just pen enthusiasts, and own these pens because it's their passion. They are often very interesting guys, like living encyclopedia of pens. They are some who like to own something precious as an extension of themselves. It's their pen, they have memories associated with it. Maybe they bought it when they finished their studies, or it was given by someone dear, or maybe it was carefully chosen because it matches ones personality. Pulling out this pen gives them feelings that a disposable BIC doesn't. Or maybe this pen was bought as a form of support. Because the owner maybe thinks that he should reward companies that do things by hands, or use certain materials or design, reasoning that if they don't buy, on one will, and this way of doing things will disappear. And this physical possession is not just a meaningless lump of material. More often then not, it is the result of hard work. I am often amazed at the engineering and craftsmanship behind everyday items. Even good marketing is worthy of respect. So don't belittle physical possessions.

notyourday 9y ago

> Physical possessions like this pen is just so vain, shallow, and meaningless. Did you type it on a mechanical keyboard?