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Imagine Oracle's current business model goes downhill. Imagine Oracle has plenty of money remaining and asks "How can we monetize Java?" They will not ask Hacke

Imagine Oracle's current business model goes downhill. Imagine Oracle has plenty of money remaining and asks "How can we monetize Java?" They will not ask Hacker News, they will spend potentially millions of dollars asking lawyers. Given Oracle's past behavior with respect to Java, their general competitive model and their financial resources the answer is "Worse than you you or HN can imagine". If you already have a significant investment in using OpenJDK, you may not have a choice, but otherwise there are other good technologies and you should avoid any JVM, JDK and other Java/JVM based technologies or languages. IMHO.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tannhaeuser 9y ago
I agree in principle though I don't see that happening anytime soon. But the point is: why should I use Java in 2017 when there are plenty alternatives around? Mindshare, maturity, and ecosystem are good reasons to choose Java still. But what's the point in Java bytecode or other compile-to-bytecode languages when the only ISAs left are x86_64 and ARM (this is also a problem I have with WASM). Back in 1996/97, there was a very real danger of MS operating systems eating the world, and Java was welcome as a cross-platform language (for me, it was very important to be able to continue developing on Unix). I'd say Java was successfull in preventing MS dominance on the backend. In 2017, it's time to move on. Personally, I'm not into languages dominated by a single party, or having a single implementation only. So it's C and C++ for me, plus JavaScript for scripting. But Java has been the go-to language for most of the time starting with the WWW boom in 1996, so the sheer amount of Java code means I don't need to worry about Java's demise. In fact, I'm fully expecting to do Java development gigs until retirement.
- snuxoll 9y ago
  As a counter-argument, why NOT use Java? You have multiple free and open source implementations to choose from, and there’s a library on Maven Central for almost anything you’d ever want - and if you don’t like the language itself there are many alternatives to choose from.
  - kodablah 9y ago
    > You have multiple free and open source implementations to choose from Can you list them? By "implementations" I assume you mean a JVM and a stdlib? I am struggling to find non-OpenJDK ones that Java compliant (i.e. passed the TCK and give me confidence in switching).
    - snuxoll 9y ago
      Yeah, I goofed a little here - there is a fair amount of OpenJDK derivatives but any of the non-hotspot implementations currently maintained are proprietary (IBM JVM, Azul Zing) or useless for what one is likely looking for (Dalvik).
  - tannhaeuser 9y ago
    Where I'd recommend Java - fat backends for eCommerce, eGovernance, etc. with deep business logic - when developing on Windows and deploying on Linux (though I'm personally much more productive with Unix/Linux) eg. pjmpl's point Where Java isn't great IMHO: - must carry around a JVM and must have a JVM for the platform in the first place (so no deployment on the BSDs with first party support) - desktop GUI apps - web apps where you want to share front-end and back-end code - environments where garbage-collected execution isn't desired (such as realtime apps or performance-oriented apps with special memory layout requirements) - asynchronous, evented I/O (though Java has libs for it as well, yet not in mainstream Java APIs) - environments where JITing isn't desired for security reasons (NoExecute segment bits) - environments where single address space apps aren't desired (security isolation) - realtime apps including high-frequency trading apps - OP's point of becoming dependent on a potentially rogue party without necessity
    - kimi 9y ago
      Not an expert, but I thought that nearly all of high-frequency trading (and finance in general) was Java. They spend handsomely on huge heaps and controlled-allocation data structures.
      - 9y ago
- pjmlp 9y ago
  A good example is that we usually always develop on Windows and don't care where the JEE server is running. Windows, some flavour of UNIX,maiframe system bare metal, container, whatever, it doesn't matter.
- znpy 9y ago
  > why should I use Java in 2017 ? Properly implemented multi-threading, i guess. When python will finally have proper multi-threading things will change a lot. But quite honestly, it's been twenty years, and that Gil is still there, healthier than ever.
abecedarius 9y ago
This seems right. Oracle already expanded the scope of legal action beyond what most of us imagined possible, when they successfully argued that APIs can be copyrighted. It's prudent to presume them capable of other unprecedented attacks.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

tannhaeuser 9y ago

I agree in principle though I don't see that happening anytime soon. But the point is: why should I use Java in 2017 when there are plenty alternatives around? Mindshare, maturity, and ecosystem are good reasons to choose Java still. But what's the point in Java bytecode or other compile-to-bytecode languages when the only ISAs left are x86_64 and ARM (this is also a problem I have with WASM). Back in 1996/97, there was a very real danger of MS operating systems eating the world, and Java was welcome as a cross-platform language (for me, it was very important to be able to continue developing on Unix). I'd say Java was successfull in preventing MS dominance on the backend. In 2017, it's time to move on. Personally, I'm not into languages dominated by a single party, or having a single implementation only. So it's C and C++ for me, plus JavaScript for scripting. But Java has been the go-to language for most of the time starting with the WWW boom in 1996, so the sheer amount of Java code means I don't need to worry about Java's demise. In fact, I'm fully expecting to do Java development gigs until retirement.

snuxoll 9y ago
As a counter-argument, why NOT use Java? You have multiple free and open source implementations to choose from, and there’s a library on Maven Central for almost anything you’d ever want - and if you don’t like the language itself there are many alternatives to choose from.
- kodablah 9y ago
  > You have multiple free and open source implementations to choose from Can you list them? By "implementations" I assume you mean a JVM and a stdlib? I am struggling to find non-OpenJDK ones that Java compliant (i.e. passed the TCK and give me confidence in switching).
  - snuxoll 9y ago
    Yeah, I goofed a little here - there is a fair amount of OpenJDK derivatives but any of the non-hotspot implementations currently maintained are proprietary (IBM JVM, Azul Zing) or useless for what one is likely looking for (Dalvik).
- tannhaeuser 9y ago
  Where I'd recommend Java - fat backends for eCommerce, eGovernance, etc. with deep business logic - when developing on Windows and deploying on Linux (though I'm personally much more productive with Unix/Linux) eg. pjmpl's point Where Java isn't great IMHO: - must carry around a JVM and must have a JVM for the platform in the first place (so no deployment on the BSDs with first party support) - desktop GUI apps - web apps where you want to share front-end and back-end code - environments where garbage-collected execution isn't desired (such as realtime apps or performance-oriented apps with special memory layout requirements) - asynchronous, evented I/O (though Java has libs for it as well, yet not in mainstream Java APIs) - environments where JITing isn't desired for security reasons (NoExecute segment bits) - environments where single address space apps aren't desired (security isolation) - realtime apps including high-frequency trading apps - OP's point of becoming dependent on a potentially rogue party without necessity
  - kimi 9y ago
    Not an expert, but I thought that nearly all of high-frequency trading (and finance in general) was Java. They spend handsomely on huge heaps and controlled-allocation data structures.
    - 9y ago
pjmlp 9y ago
A good example is that we usually always develop on Windows and don't care where the JEE server is running. Windows, some flavour of UNIX,maiframe system bare metal, container, whatever, it doesn't matter.
znpy 9y ago
> why should I use Java in 2017 ? Properly implemented multi-threading, i guess. When python will finally have proper multi-threading things will change a lot. But quite honestly, it's been twenty years, and that Gil is still there, healthier than ever.

abecedarius 9y ago

This seems right. Oracle already expanded the scope of legal action beyond what most of us imagined possible, when they successfully argued that APIs can be copyrighted. It's prudent to presume them capable of other unprecedented attacks.