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What I don't get about USA mentality is that Americans collectively pay >600B/year to fund military[0], trillions worth of pointless wars[1] via taxes and are h

by kbart 9y ago

What I don't get about USA mentality is that Americans collectively pay >600B/year to fund military[0], trillions worth of pointless wars[1] via taxes and are happy about that, but when it comes to paying some extra to fund their own and fellow citizens healthcare (which costs nearly twice less than military spending[2]), suddenly it's somehow against free market and "American spirit". Is it a paramount of government brainwashing, lobbying or something else? 0. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/02/how-us-defense-spending-stacks-up-against-the-rest-of-the-world.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/02/how-us-defense-spending-stac... 1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-usa-funding/u-s-cbo-estimates-2-4-trillion-long-term-war-costs-idUSN2450753720071024 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-usa-funding/u-s-cbo-... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_Stat...

edraferi 9y ago
This attitude is even more stark in the Justice system. It's way cheaper to buy a homeless person a sandwich than to jail them for 5 years after they steal one. (A real situation, per a DA friend of mine, thanks to mandatory minimums and 3 strike laws.) You see the same thing with drugs: we prefer lengthy, expensive jail sentences to lengthy, expensive treatment. Why are people more willing to fund punitive programs than assistance programs that could preempt crimes? I have several theories: 1. Post hoc measures are more inherently more certain. You know that the treatment is being applied in the specific cases you want. With prevention it's impossible to know if any given intervention accomplished something, and very difficult to assess if the overall program is effective. 2. The USA specifically has a strong individualist streak. This has roots in a combination of (1) the cowboy myth / fronteir legacy of relatively infinite living space, (2) Protestant Christianity, (3) capitalism, especially post WW2 consumerism. I recently heard a talk that argued that Regan synthesized these very effectively, pushing us forward from the Great Society era, which was more collectivist. The emphasis on individualism created contrast with the communist Soviet Union.
mrunkel 9y ago
Even more insane, Americans ALREADY pay for all the uninsured through their insurance fees, as the cost of healthcare for the uninsured is passed along to insurance companies by the providers in the form of higher prices. I'd only correct your post by saying that it's not about paying extra, it's about paying the same amount and/or less to someone other than a for-profit insurance company. I am in Germany and am totally blown away by the German health insurance system. It seems to work really well for all concerned.
- kbart 9y ago
  "Even more insane, Americans ALREADY pay for all the uninsured through their insurance fees" Exactly. But while it's called "insurance fee" not "tax", it's somehow OK, even though tax extra would amount to less than insurance -- yet another paradox I honestly don't get.
developer2 9y ago
Bang on. Across the globe, citizens of every other nation cannot fathom why the US prioritizes military spending above all else. It just doesn't make sense.
- Noos 9y ago
  because we're subsidizing europe, which is a huge free rider on the US military. If Putin for whatever reason decided to become an expansionist power and the US had an european level military, no one could stop him. Europe in general has been massively subsidized in different ways by the USA from the end of WW2. They turn around and love to show off their moral superiority while someone else picks up the bill.
  - kbart 9y ago
    I agree with that (though things are slowly getting better in Europe), but then why average Joe from USA is OK with government subsidizing Europe with his tax money, but freaks out on the idea of paying for his own healthcare from the same tax money?
    - dalacv 9y ago
      Because the average joe can't afford to pay any more in taxes. If only Europe would build up their own military, and help out a little.
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      > why average Joe from USA is OK with government subsidizing Europe with his tax money Where do you get the idea that "average Joe" is okay with that? It's been a huge talking point for Trump and his supporters for the past two years.
      - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
        Also, the majority of American's are actually in favor of having some kind of sane medical system, like other first world countries. That's well supported by polling (though interestingly they don't like "Obamacare" but do like all the policies that make up the Affordable Care Act) This was also a talking point for Trump and his supporters for the past two years. ("we're going to have insurance for everyone", "No cuts to medicaid", "No one will lose coverage", "Nobody will be worse off financially", "I am going to take care of everybody … Everybody’s going to be taken care of much better than they’re taken care of now.") Of course, in that case as well, he took them for the rubes they are and likely had no plan for delivering on his promises.
AsyncAwait 9y ago
I am not American, but follow their politics closely and I think that many people over there became convinced over years of massaging that they shouldn't spend taxes on anything that helps individuals, i.e. military is seen as composed of patriots who do the heroic work of protecting the nation and thus deserve to be paid by taxes, but when it comes to healthcare, many don't want to pay for what they perceive to be lazy people who can't pull themselves by their bootstraps and get a job good enough to pay private insurance, because they simply refuse to work hard enough - whatever that means. As an European, I find this kind of attitude towards fellow citizens really barbaric and strange, but this is my observation.
- brightball 9y ago
  That's not it. The issue is that government programs in the US have a history of being poorly run, abused, expensive and totally unable to be reformed once in place. There is a separation between "wanting healthcare" and "wanting government healthcare." It's a lack of faith issue combined with a history devoid of contrary examples.
  - AsyncAwait 9y ago
    > The issue is that government programs in the US have a history of being poorly run, abused, expensive and totally unable to be reformed once in place. That is true, but isn't that because they're being used to play politics? ie. being poorly funded to prove that government programs don't work, or awarding massive contracts to private contractors that fail to deliver quality due to corruption, (campaign contributions etc. ) and lack of oversight?
    - brightball 9y ago
      Could definitely be a contributing factor. The lack of reform is politically based because you can't even have the conversation without somebody jumping to "they want to take away...!"

by kbart 9y ago

edraferi 9y ago

This attitude is even more stark in the Justice system. It's way cheaper to buy a homeless person a sandwich than to jail them for 5 years after they steal one. (A real situation, per a DA friend of mine, thanks to mandatory minimums and 3 strike laws.) You see the same thing with drugs: we prefer lengthy, expensive jail sentences to lengthy, expensive treatment. Why are people more willing to fund punitive programs than assistance programs that could preempt crimes? I have several theories: 1. Post hoc measures are more inherently more certain. You know that the treatment is being applied in the specific cases you want. With prevention it's impossible to know if any given intervention accomplished something, and very difficult to assess if the overall program is effective. 2. The USA specifically has a strong individualist streak. This has roots in a combination of (1) the cowboy myth / fronteir legacy of relatively infinite living space, (2) Protestant Christianity, (3) capitalism, especially post WW2 consumerism. I recently heard a talk that argued that Regan synthesized these very effectively, pushing us forward from the Great Society era, which was more collectivist. The emphasis on individualism created contrast with the communist Soviet Union.

mrunkel 9y ago

Even more insane, Americans ALREADY pay for all the uninsured through their insurance fees, as the cost of healthcare for the uninsured is passed along to insurance companies by the providers in the form of higher prices. I'd only correct your post by saying that it's not about paying extra, it's about paying the same amount and/or less to someone other than a for-profit insurance company. I am in Germany and am totally blown away by the German health insurance system. It seems to work really well for all concerned.

kbart 9y ago
"Even more insane, Americans ALREADY pay for all the uninsured through their insurance fees" Exactly. But while it's called "insurance fee" not "tax", it's somehow OK, even though tax extra would amount to less than insurance -- yet another paradox I honestly don't get.

developer2 9y ago

Bang on. Across the globe, citizens of every other nation cannot fathom why the US prioritizes military spending above all else. It just doesn't make sense.

Noos 9y ago
because we're subsidizing europe, which is a huge free rider on the US military. If Putin for whatever reason decided to become an expansionist power and the US had an european level military, no one could stop him. Europe in general has been massively subsidized in different ways by the USA from the end of WW2. They turn around and love to show off their moral superiority while someone else picks up the bill.
- kbart 9y ago
  I agree with that (though things are slowly getting better in Europe), but then why average Joe from USA is OK with government subsidizing Europe with his tax money, but freaks out on the idea of paying for his own healthcare from the same tax money?
  - dalacv 9y ago
    Because the average joe can't afford to pay any more in taxes. If only Europe would build up their own military, and help out a little.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > why average Joe from USA is OK with government subsidizing Europe with his tax money Where do you get the idea that "average Joe" is okay with that? It's been a huge talking point for Trump and his supporters for the past two years.
    - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
      Also, the majority of American's are actually in favor of having some kind of sane medical system, like other first world countries. That's well supported by polling (though interestingly they don't like "Obamacare" but do like all the policies that make up the Affordable Care Act) This was also a talking point for Trump and his supporters for the past two years. ("we're going to have insurance for everyone", "No cuts to medicaid", "No one will lose coverage", "Nobody will be worse off financially", "I am going to take care of everybody … Everybody’s going to be taken care of much better than they’re taken care of now.") Of course, in that case as well, he took them for the rubes they are and likely had no plan for delivering on his promises.

AsyncAwait 9y ago

I am not American, but follow their politics closely and I think that many people over there became convinced over years of massaging that they shouldn't spend taxes on anything that helps individuals, i.e. military is seen as composed of patriots who do the heroic work of protecting the nation and thus deserve to be paid by taxes, but when it comes to healthcare, many don't want to pay for what they perceive to be lazy people who can't pull themselves by their bootstraps and get a job good enough to pay private insurance, because they simply refuse to work hard enough - whatever that means. As an European, I find this kind of attitude towards fellow citizens really barbaric and strange, but this is my observation.

brightball 9y ago
That's not it. The issue is that government programs in the US have a history of being poorly run, abused, expensive and totally unable to be reformed once in place. There is a separation between "wanting healthcare" and "wanting government healthcare." It's a lack of faith issue combined with a history devoid of contrary examples.
- AsyncAwait 9y ago
  > The issue is that government programs in the US have a history of being poorly run, abused, expensive and totally unable to be reformed once in place. That is true, but isn't that because they're being used to play politics? ie. being poorly funded to prove that government programs don't work, or awarding massive contracts to private contractors that fail to deliver quality due to corruption, (campaign contributions etc. ) and lack of oversight?
  - brightball 9y ago
    Could definitely be a contributing factor. The lack of reform is politically based because you can't even have the conversation without somebody jumping to "they want to take away...!"