5 ms·

Norway has practically zero homelessness, since everyone who are incapable of providing for themselves are paid a living wage by the state (and are also provide

by marvin 9y ago

Norway has practically zero homelessness, since everyone who are incapable of providing for themselves are paid a living wage by the state (and are also provided free housing). There are probably a few people who fall between the cracks in the system, e.g. illegal immigrants who are on the run from the authorities or people who are mentally ill and actively resist medical care or help from the government. But there are practically zero people who are involuntarily homeless, for some fuzzy definition of the term involuntary.

Swizec 9y ago
> But there are practically zero people who are involuntarily homeless, for some fuzzy definition of the term involuntary. For curiosity's sake, how hard would it be to survive a Norwegian winter as a homeless person? Could that impact how much pressure the government feels in solving the problem? My impression from living in San Francisco is that nobody really wants to solve homelessness. Sure there's a lot of virtue signaling and a lot of volunteering and donating and stuff, but when it comes right down to it, nobody really cares enough to do anything about it. It's just sort of a part of SF culture/charm that it's full of crazy homeless people who shout at their demons in the street and sometimes drop their pants and masturbate or take a dump on Muni. Everybody shrugs and goes on with their day. Sometimes they update the latest "poop map" app with their sighting or make a "OMG SF is so weird" post on social media. But would they pay more taxes to build more homeless shelters? To make mental health care available to everyone? To have a livable basic income for the unemployed? Hell no, that's where you've gone too far from virtue signaling towards solving the problem. Wouldn't want that
Shivetya 9y ago
practically zero is 1.4 per 1000, the US is only at 1.7 per 1000. Norway might be able to lay claim to practically zero because the nations population is so small. A smaller number does not indicate it is solved, the per 1000 is the number to watch. the majority of conditions you give for people falling through the cracks applies to the vast majority of Western countries. The world has a need to better mental health treatment. Cities in the US spend tens of millions and more to combat homelessness but it is not a simple problem. there were stories about banning begging in Norway, I guess hiding a problem makes it go away. Don't fret, it is a practice many big American cities use as well, especially when large number of visitors are in town. hence the problem, we want to pretend it doesn't exist so we hide it
- marvin 9y ago
  It's not quite as simple as "persons per 1000 without a fixed address". _Yes_, strictly speaking this is the definition of homelessness (and this number was indeed around 1.2 at the last count in Norway), but the debate is in reality about the misery of the poorest in society. No one will debate that a person without a fixed domicile that receives $800/month[0] by the state and is regularly encouraged to seek free mental health care, is much better off than someone that receives no financial aid and is forced to beg or eat trash in order to stay alive. The situation with begging in Norway is complex and not a direct proxy for extreme poverty[1]. Do agree that better mental health treatment is required in large parts of the world, and that homelessness and poverty are complex and cannot be solved by simply paying someone to fix things. What I was trying to say was that it is a problem that can to a large extent be mitigated, if there is a cultural will to do it. It is by no means a phenomenon that will always be unacceptably bad if some moderate measures are taken to alleviate it. [0]: https://www.nav.no/no/NAV+og+samfunn/Kontakt+NAV/Utbetalinger/Snarveier/satser--380089?kap=380109 https://www.nav.no/no/NAV+og+samfunn/Kontakt+NAV/Utbetalinge... [1]: https://tv.nrk.no/serie/brennpunkt/mddp11000617/18-04-2017 https://tv.nrk.no/serie/brennpunkt/mddp11000617/18-04-2017, documentary following beggars in Bergen for two years. A large proportion is found to be part of specific human trafficking schemes.
devmunchies 9y ago
that isn't achievable or sustainable in the US at a national level. The entire country Norway has a smaller population than the largest county in the US. Maybe the long term plan should be to give homeless people a one way ticket to Norway. (sarcasm)
- Frondo 9y ago
  Of course it's achievable, if you just look at the money. This is a vastly wealthy country, the money's there to provide for every social program imaginable. It's not culturally achievable because Americans buy into a just world fallacy for every social ill: all the wrongs in the U.S. are because whoever's suffering deserved it. For all the people who say capitalism is our national religion, I'd say this fallacy is one of our ten commandments, right after "screw you I got mine".
  - devmunchies 9y ago
    No, the American govt is too big and inefficient. That problems like this have never been solved by countries the size of the US is not a coincidence. If power was transferred from the central govt to the states, then each state would be able to function like a small country and better manage local problems like homelessness much like Norway. Socialism nor capitalism function efficiently at this large of a scale.
    - Communitivity 9y ago
      So you have two statements: (a) Norway's approach is impossible in the US (b) Norway's approach is impossible in the US without changing how inefficient the US government is In my opinion, (a) is false, while (b) is true. Moreover, I think we can change the government over time, and we'll also have to change how we treat corporations. For example, corporations will have to be taxed much more (perhaps as much as 50% of profits).
- tjalfi 9y ago
  Nevada used to give homeless mental patients bus tickets to California [0][1]. [0] http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/nevada-settles-busing-homeless-lawsuit-san-francisco/ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/nevada-settles-b... [1] http://www.sacbee.com/news/investigations/nevada-patient-busing/article2577189.html http://www.sacbee.com/news/investigations/nevada-patient-bus...

by marvin 9y ago

Swizec 9y ago

> But there are practically zero people who are involuntarily homeless, for some fuzzy definition of the term involuntary. For curiosity's sake, how hard would it be to survive a Norwegian winter as a homeless person? Could that impact how much pressure the government feels in solving the problem? My impression from living in San Francisco is that nobody really wants to solve homelessness. Sure there's a lot of virtue signaling and a lot of volunteering and donating and stuff, but when it comes right down to it, nobody really cares enough to do anything about it. It's just sort of a part of SF culture/charm that it's full of crazy homeless people who shout at their demons in the street and sometimes drop their pants and masturbate or take a dump on Muni. Everybody shrugs and goes on with their day. Sometimes they update the latest "poop map" app with their sighting or make a "OMG SF is so weird" post on social media. But would they pay more taxes to build more homeless shelters? To make mental health care available to everyone? To have a livable basic income for the unemployed? Hell no, that's where you've gone too far from virtue signaling towards solving the problem. Wouldn't want that

Shivetya 9y ago

practically zero is 1.4 per 1000, the US is only at 1.7 per 1000. Norway might be able to lay claim to practically zero because the nations population is so small. A smaller number does not indicate it is solved, the per 1000 is the number to watch. the majority of conditions you give for people falling through the cracks applies to the vast majority of Western countries. The world has a need to better mental health treatment. Cities in the US spend tens of millions and more to combat homelessness but it is not a simple problem. there were stories about banning begging in Norway, I guess hiding a problem makes it go away. Don't fret, it is a practice many big American cities use as well, especially when large number of visitors are in town. hence the problem, we want to pretend it doesn't exist so we hide it

marvin 9y ago
It's not quite as simple as "persons per 1000 without a fixed address". _Yes_, strictly speaking this is the definition of homelessness (and this number was indeed around 1.2 at the last count in Norway), but the debate is in reality about the misery of the poorest in society. No one will debate that a person without a fixed domicile that receives $800/month[0] by the state and is regularly encouraged to seek free mental health care, is much better off than someone that receives no financial aid and is forced to beg or eat trash in order to stay alive. The situation with begging in Norway is complex and not a direct proxy for extreme poverty[1]. Do agree that better mental health treatment is required in large parts of the world, and that homelessness and poverty are complex and cannot be solved by simply paying someone to fix things. What I was trying to say was that it is a problem that can to a large extent be mitigated, if there is a cultural will to do it. It is by no means a phenomenon that will always be unacceptably bad if some moderate measures are taken to alleviate it. [0]: https://www.nav.no/no/NAV+og+samfunn/Kontakt+NAV/Utbetalinger/Snarveier/satser--380089?kap=380109 https://www.nav.no/no/NAV+og+samfunn/Kontakt+NAV/Utbetalinge... [1]: https://tv.nrk.no/serie/brennpunkt/mddp11000617/18-04-2017 https://tv.nrk.no/serie/brennpunkt/mddp11000617/18-04-2017, documentary following beggars in Bergen for two years. A large proportion is found to be part of specific human trafficking schemes.

devmunchies 9y ago

that isn't achievable or sustainable in the US at a national level. The entire country Norway has a smaller population than the largest county in the US. Maybe the long term plan should be to give homeless people a one way ticket to Norway. (sarcasm)

Frondo 9y ago
Of course it's achievable, if you just look at the money. This is a vastly wealthy country, the money's there to provide for every social program imaginable. It's not culturally achievable because Americans buy into a just world fallacy for every social ill: all the wrongs in the U.S. are because whoever's suffering deserved it. For all the people who say capitalism is our national religion, I'd say this fallacy is one of our ten commandments, right after "screw you I got mine".
- devmunchies 9y ago
  No, the American govt is too big and inefficient. That problems like this have never been solved by countries the size of the US is not a coincidence. If power was transferred from the central govt to the states, then each state would be able to function like a small country and better manage local problems like homelessness much like Norway. Socialism nor capitalism function efficiently at this large of a scale.
  - Communitivity 9y ago
    So you have two statements: (a) Norway's approach is impossible in the US (b) Norway's approach is impossible in the US without changing how inefficient the US government is In my opinion, (a) is false, while (b) is true. Moreover, I think we can change the government over time, and we'll also have to change how we treat corporations. For example, corporations will have to be taxed much more (perhaps as much as 50% of profits).
tjalfi 9y ago
Nevada used to give homeless mental patients bus tickets to California [0][1]. [0] http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/nevada-settles-busing-homeless-lawsuit-san-francisco/ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/nevada-settles-b... [1] http://www.sacbee.com/news/investigations/nevada-patient-busing/article2577189.html http://www.sacbee.com/news/investigations/nevada-patient-bus...