5 ms·

UBI is a bad attempt to patch a broken capitalist system that has no regard for the humans within it. It may delay riots, but people's basic needs still won't b

by posguy 9y ago

UBI is a bad attempt to patch a broken capitalist system that has no regard for the humans within it. It may delay riots, but people's basic needs still won't be met.

gremlinsinc 9y ago
What would you suggest as an alternative if there were only enough jobs to support 20-30% of people .. including professional jobs like doctors/radiologists/lawyers being displaced?
- posguy 9y ago
  Sounds like it could be great, terrible, or somewhere in between in the future you describe. I'm a socialist by upbringing, hopefully we would be smart enough to organize our society such that we take care of those most vulnerable among us. Currently we make a modicum of effort towards this, and vilify the working poor as lazy, no good scum, despite how they often work much more than those who earn more than them.
  - surge 9y ago
    Why do people who call out capitalism for being a broken system, fail to acknowledge socialism (in all of its purest forms tried so far) is also broken and doesn't work when you have non-altruistic self interested humans in the mix or at least people who will look out for others but mostly people in their social proximity. I'm all happy for an alternative, and something better than capitalism. but at least suggest a working alternative. Capitalism for all its faults seems to have the highest chance of success, especially when you hybridize it with some socialist policies which is more or less what most western countries have done and even then there are basic issues, but neither extreme capitalism or socialism works. Both have a tendency to encourage different forms of corruption and different levels of inequality, or just short lived gains.
  - gremlinsinc 9y ago
    Honestly, I look beyond socialism/capitalism/consumerism to something more like the Venus Project or Resource based economy as something we should attain to, though it's a bit utopian to think we'll ever get their in the current political climate...maybe someday... I voted for Bernie personally -- not a full out socialist... but I do think single payer + ubi + free college makes sense -- take the stress out of living paycheck to paycheck... at least somewhat... Not saying make everyone a millionaire and inflate the crap out of thnigs...but there needs to be some equilibrium... One good policy might be capped CEO pay at say 200 * average employee salary. In this way - for CEO to get a raise, average salary must go up -- this can happen either by raising across the board or by moving more people to management and increasing upward mobility. Any money the CEO makes over 200* from that company is taxed at 100% including benefits, stocks, etc...
    - TheDongIsYou 9y ago
      I used to be inspired by the Venus Project years ago. Unfortunately I realized it is extremely utopian and things needs to change in a more practical sense if we want a good chance of succeding. I'm currently very impressed by the work of Prof. Richard Wolff, an economist that heavily criticizes Capitalism and tries to make actual practical changes in the lives of people starting from their workplaces. Here is a talk he made in front of Google employees (the irony): https://youtu.be/ynbgMKclWWc https://youtu.be/ynbgMKclWWc
      - gremlinsinc 9y ago
        I'll take a look... let me rephrase that the Venus project...which I just heard about a few months ago..intrigues me quite a bit... but I don't see it really being feasible till we're an interplanetary species and even then maybe not...But there are good concepts and maybe when general AI hits, who knows what will change... I do like UBI though along with (the pragmatist in me) believes gov't should work like agile dev teams... push changes up to a github like interface for bills.. the all bills should be VERY succinct and serve 1 goal, and that they should be repealable pretty easily like reverting a change on github... I think we have WAY too much bloat, and omnibuses just don't make sense at all and should be illegal. Congressmen make very good money and benefits -- and have lots of perks so they should be required to work as hard as the next guy in America - -40 hours per week IN congress discussing bills and voting - -anything to 'market' themselves for future elections is NOT part of their job and outside their 'paid' duties and should be done on their own time. I think automation, etc will disrupt the entire fabric of society soon, and honestly I hope we can move back to middle-age work days... they worked maybe 20 hours a week, if that and some weeks not at all - if farming the winter was pretty much just don't freeze to death... While their lives weren't long, I have to think they enjoyed life more than we do today.
- PeeryTwo 9y ago
  Slightly offtopic, althought maybe not: Is it any political party's goal to close all tax loop holes, so as to virtually eliminate the possibility of another Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos, at least on their scale?
  - URSpider94 9y ago
    What makes you think that Gates and Bezos were created by tax loopholes? And, what do you even mean by tax loopholes? Is postponement of capital gains until a sale event a loophole? Most of Bezos' wealth comes from his ownership of Amazon, which won't be taxed until he sells his shares. Changing that rule would mean Bezos might be less rich, but it would also mean that you would have to pony up tax money every time your house appreciates in value ...
    - surge 9y ago
      I technically do, it's called property taxes which are directly tied to the assessed value of my house. That said, I agree with your point, just bad example.
chewz 9y ago
Rome has kept entire population on Universal Basic Income for hundreds of years. Some of best an most peaceful years in the history of Europe. Wars of I BC century and Roman laws that put people into slavery for debts had brought hundreds of thousands of slaves into economy bringing cost of labour close to zero. Conquest of Egypt and North Africa flooded markets with cheap grain. That market disruption made artisan shops and small farms unable to sustain/compete on the market with larger enterprises based on slave labour. Majority of citizens of lower class had been then entitled to free food and free entertainment (bread and circus). It was necessary for keeping their votes and for keeping appearances of the republic. (Even what we call Roman Empire were still nominally a Republic with Senate and elections held for various offices every year at Fields of Mars). I recommend everyone reading Rubicon by Tom Holland. https://www.amazon.com/Rubicon-Tom-Holland/dp/1400078970 https://www.amazon.com/Rubicon-Tom-Holland/dp/1400078970

by posguy 9y ago

UBI is a bad attempt to patch a broken capitalist system that has no regard for the humans within it. It may delay riots, but people's basic needs still won't be met.

gremlinsinc 9y ago

What would you suggest as an alternative if there were only enough jobs to support 20-30% of people .. including professional jobs like doctors/radiologists/lawyers being displaced?

posguy 9y ago
Sounds like it could be great, terrible, or somewhere in between in the future you describe. I'm a socialist by upbringing, hopefully we would be smart enough to organize our society such that we take care of those most vulnerable among us. Currently we make a modicum of effort towards this, and vilify the working poor as lazy, no good scum, despite how they often work much more than those who earn more than them.
- surge 9y ago
  Why do people who call out capitalism for being a broken system, fail to acknowledge socialism (in all of its purest forms tried so far) is also broken and doesn't work when you have non-altruistic self interested humans in the mix or at least people who will look out for others but mostly people in their social proximity. I'm all happy for an alternative, and something better than capitalism. but at least suggest a working alternative. Capitalism for all its faults seems to have the highest chance of success, especially when you hybridize it with some socialist policies which is more or less what most western countries have done and even then there are basic issues, but neither extreme capitalism or socialism works. Both have a tendency to encourage different forms of corruption and different levels of inequality, or just short lived gains.
- gremlinsinc 9y ago
  Honestly, I look beyond socialism/capitalism/consumerism to something more like the Venus Project or Resource based economy as something we should attain to, though it's a bit utopian to think we'll ever get their in the current political climate...maybe someday... I voted for Bernie personally -- not a full out socialist... but I do think single payer + ubi + free college makes sense -- take the stress out of living paycheck to paycheck... at least somewhat... Not saying make everyone a millionaire and inflate the crap out of thnigs...but there needs to be some equilibrium... One good policy might be capped CEO pay at say 200 * average employee salary. In this way - for CEO to get a raise, average salary must go up -- this can happen either by raising across the board or by moving more people to management and increasing upward mobility. Any money the CEO makes over 200* from that company is taxed at 100% including benefits, stocks, etc...
  - TheDongIsYou 9y ago
    I used to be inspired by the Venus Project years ago. Unfortunately I realized it is extremely utopian and things needs to change in a more practical sense if we want a good chance of succeding. I'm currently very impressed by the work of Prof. Richard Wolff, an economist that heavily criticizes Capitalism and tries to make actual practical changes in the lives of people starting from their workplaces. Here is a talk he made in front of Google employees (the irony): https://youtu.be/ynbgMKclWWc https://youtu.be/ynbgMKclWWc
    - gremlinsinc 9y ago
      I'll take a look... let me rephrase that the Venus project...which I just heard about a few months ago..intrigues me quite a bit... but I don't see it really being feasible till we're an interplanetary species and even then maybe not...But there are good concepts and maybe when general AI hits, who knows what will change... I do like UBI though along with (the pragmatist in me) believes gov't should work like agile dev teams... push changes up to a github like interface for bills.. the all bills should be VERY succinct and serve 1 goal, and that they should be repealable pretty easily like reverting a change on github... I think we have WAY too much bloat, and omnibuses just don't make sense at all and should be illegal. Congressmen make very good money and benefits -- and have lots of perks so they should be required to work as hard as the next guy in America - -40 hours per week IN congress discussing bills and voting - -anything to 'market' themselves for future elections is NOT part of their job and outside their 'paid' duties and should be done on their own time. I think automation, etc will disrupt the entire fabric of society soon, and honestly I hope we can move back to middle-age work days... they worked maybe 20 hours a week, if that and some weeks not at all - if farming the winter was pretty much just don't freeze to death... While their lives weren't long, I have to think they enjoyed life more than we do today.
PeeryTwo 9y ago
Slightly offtopic, althought maybe not: Is it any political party's goal to close all tax loop holes, so as to virtually eliminate the possibility of another Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos, at least on their scale?
- URSpider94 9y ago
  What makes you think that Gates and Bezos were created by tax loopholes? And, what do you even mean by tax loopholes? Is postponement of capital gains until a sale event a loophole? Most of Bezos' wealth comes from his ownership of Amazon, which won't be taxed until he sells his shares. Changing that rule would mean Bezos might be less rich, but it would also mean that you would have to pony up tax money every time your house appreciates in value ...
  - surge 9y ago
    I technically do, it's called property taxes which are directly tied to the assessed value of my house. That said, I agree with your point, just bad example.

chewz 9y ago

Rome has kept entire population on Universal Basic Income for hundreds of years. Some of best an most peaceful years in the history of Europe. Wars of I BC century and Roman laws that put people into slavery for debts had brought hundreds of thousands of slaves into economy bringing cost of labour close to zero. Conquest of Egypt and North Africa flooded markets with cheap grain. That market disruption made artisan shops and small farms unable to sustain/compete on the market with larger enterprises based on slave labour. Majority of citizens of lower class had been then entitled to free food and free entertainment (bread and circus). It was necessary for keeping their votes and for keeping appearances of the republic. (Even what we call Roman Empire were still nominally a Republic with Senate and elections held for various offices every year at Fields of Mars). I recommend everyone reading Rubicon by Tom Holland. https://www.amazon.com/Rubicon-Tom-Holland/dp/1400078970 https://www.amazon.com/Rubicon-Tom-Holland/dp/1400078970