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"... someone needs to be held criminally liable for situations such as this one." What is the crime that "someone" should be charged with? In the VW case the

"... someone needs to be held criminally liable for situations such as this one." What is the crime that "someone" should be charged with? In the VW case the media reports it was fraud against the government and violation of the Clean Air Act. To do what you suggest, one first needs an applicable criminal statute. What is it? (Not implying this is impossible. Only trying to focus the discussion beyond the usual rants.)

Nomentatus 9y ago
Great question, I agree. Criminal negligence might be one possibility; fraud in selling something not suitable for purpose might be another. Obviously it's going to be very difficult to draw such lines in the (continuous) sand; but we might as well start now. How many corners can you cut before the courts need to be involved (beyond civil lawsuits?) How much of the net do you need to imperil to trigger criminal consequences? Maybe something like certification for electronics is needed and is possible here? Where manufacturers pay for a fairly decent inspection of their work in return for a mark of inspection? (I don't mean to take a side re this particular crap-storm.)
- ryan-c 9y ago
  AT&T doesn't sell these modems, they require customers to rent them.
  - kurthr 9y ago
    And they restrict all updates to them... those must be downloaded from AT&T. I have one.
    - ryan-c 9y ago
      They even require the damn things on their gigabit fiber service (there is a separate media converter, so it's not about the physical interface), and enforce using it by doing wired 802.1x.
gtirloni 9y ago
It's a situation similar to bankers and the financial crisis. That is, extremely difficult to jail someone for it. This article explains it better: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/why-arent-any-bankers-in-prison-for-causing-the-financial-crisis/496232/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/why-are...
- ethbro 9y ago
  Currently, in the US, there is legally no way that I'm aware of for liability to flow upwards. It's all gated and derisked behind "if anything bad happens, the end user is to blame." In order for this to change, two things need to happen. Things that I think even libertarians would get behind (because of end results). 1) Hold manufacturers of networked consumer devices liable for all damages caused to third parties by their devices (e.g. if they are used in a bother). Reason being that the buyer wilfully choose the device, but a third party did not 2) Create a waiver to this liability if (and only if) the manufacturer includes a standards-compliant, end-user usable firmware upgrade facility AND releases documentation necessary for third parties to build firmware files Then let the market decide.

Nomentatus 9y ago

Great question, I agree. Criminal negligence might be one possibility; fraud in selling something not suitable for purpose might be another. Obviously it's going to be very difficult to draw such lines in the (continuous) sand; but we might as well start now. How many corners can you cut before the courts need to be involved (beyond civil lawsuits?) How much of the net do you need to imperil to trigger criminal consequences? Maybe something like certification for electronics is needed and is possible here? Where manufacturers pay for a fairly decent inspection of their work in return for a mark of inspection? (I don't mean to take a side re this particular crap-storm.)

ryan-c 9y ago
AT&T doesn't sell these modems, they require customers to rent them.
- kurthr 9y ago
  And they restrict all updates to them... those must be downloaded from AT&T. I have one.
  - ryan-c 9y ago
    They even require the damn things on their gigabit fiber service (there is a separate media converter, so it's not about the physical interface), and enforce using it by doing wired 802.1x.

gtirloni 9y ago

It's a situation similar to bankers and the financial crisis. That is, extremely difficult to jail someone for it. This article explains it better: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/why-arent-any-bankers-in-prison-for-causing-the-financial-crisis/496232/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/why-are...

ethbro 9y ago
Currently, in the US, there is legally no way that I'm aware of for liability to flow upwards. It's all gated and derisked behind "if anything bad happens, the end user is to blame." In order for this to change, two things need to happen. Things that I think even libertarians would get behind (because of end results). 1) Hold manufacturers of networked consumer devices liable for all damages caused to third parties by their devices (e.g. if they are used in a bother). Reason being that the buyer wilfully choose the device, but a third party did not 2) Create a waiver to this liability if (and only if) the manufacturer includes a standards-compliant, end-user usable firmware upgrade facility AND releases documentation necessary for third parties to build firmware files Then let the market decide.