11 ms·

San Diego Declares Health Emergency Amid Hepatitis A Outbreak

91 points by Mz 9y ago

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
curun1r 9y ago
It's way past time that we start dealing with homelessness as the national problem it is rather than leaving it to cities who are ill-equipped to deal with it. Cities like San Diego only have homelessness problems because they have weather that's amenable to living outdoors. The vast majority of their homeless population was born elsewhere. It's unconscionable that we leave the job of providing services for these people to these cities. When people are made homeless by hurricanes and flooding, we don't question the need to help and we give FEMA free license to spend what's necessary to provide support. And yet when it comes to the long-term homeless population, we act like there's no moral obligation to help. These kinds of outbreaks are just a natural and expected outcome when we take such a localized approach to homelessness.
- bluejekyll 9y ago
  Basic income, basic housing, basic food, basic education, basic healthcare? Seems like we need to address all of these issues. Literally the only institutions that provide all of these things are jails, which many homeless attempt to get into.
  - ams6110 9y ago
    Not true at all. These things are all provided. Welfare, public housing, food stamps, public education, Medicaid. That we still have a homeless problem indicates that the reason for long-term homelessness is something else.
    - Mz 9y ago
      There is a really huge shortage of genuinely affordable housing in the US. Public housing is generally pretty crappy and in short supply to boot. Having studied the problem in an actual college class and also spent the last 5.5 years on the street: It's complicated. But we need more solutions for people and fewer aimed at poor people specifically. Programs to help the poor are routinely craptastic. Affordable housing and single payer medical coverage would go a long way towards reducing the problem.
      - hueving 9y ago
        >There is a really huge shortage of genuinely affordable housing in the US. Public housing is generally pretty crappy and in short supply to boot. This is disingenuous, the housing shortages are all in the highly desirable locations like the SFO, LAX, NYC, etc. There is no housing shortage in the vast majority of the country (look at Detroit). It's completely unsustainable to try to support a model where anyone should be able to live in whatever city they choose for an extremely low cost.
        thebooktocome 9y ago
        Follow this line of thought long enough, and you get to a hukou system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system
        EGreg 9y ago
        Is that good or bad? Listen, I support single payer systems, but how do they figure out how much to pay in each region? Same question for UBI. I have come to believe that UBI and all other safety nets have to come with immigration requirements. Not just everyone is going to be accepted to live among rich billionaires without concern for running out of money. And so on in every neighborhood. Thus, UBI needs for each area needs to be tied in with community membership, and be based on the Consumer Price Index in that area. Communities can open themselves up to more people from time to time.
        9y ago
    - ubernostrum 9y ago
      All the programs you named are chronically underfunded and subject to restrictions and red tape designed to force people to jump through many hoops to prove they "deserve" help. And there is a nasty history of attitudes among those in power as to what kind of people "deserve" help and what kind of people don't. Well-funded truly universal (i.e., every citizen is automatically eligible and automatically presumed eligible by the administering agency) have not been tried in the US.
    - drcross 9y ago
      >That we still have a homeless problem indicates that the reason for long-term homelessness is something else. I presumed it was common knowledge that the vast majority of homeless people have mental health issues. America seems to lack any public mental health services. I was disgusted by the number of disturbed homeless people roaming the streets of California when I visited in ways you never see in most of europe. There seems to be absolutely no support for the most vulnerable in society over there.
      - tjalfi 9y ago
        The following is an excerpt from [0]. Around the same time, the Court ruled, in O’Connor v. Donaldson, that a Florida man named Kenneth Donaldson had been kept against his will in a state psychiatric hospital for nearly fifteen years. The ruling added momentum to a nationwide campaign to “deinstitutionalize” the mentally ill. Activists decried the existence of mental hospitals that were filled, as one account put it, with “naked humans herded like cattle.” During the next two decades, states across the country shut down such facilities, both to save money and to appease advocates pushing for reform. But instead of funding more humane modes of treatment—such as community mental-health centers that could help patients live independently—many states left the mentally ill to their own devices. Often, highly unstable people ended up on the streets, abusing drugs and committing crimes, which led them into the prison system. [0] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/02/the-torturing-of-mentally-ill-prisoners http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/02/the-torturing-o...
        andirk 9y ago
        It's a lot easier to help a guilty person with "correctional" incarceration than it is to help an innocent person with a path to a decent life.
    - InclinedPlane 9y ago
      That's ... a fantasy. Do you understand the limits of welfare? Do you know the waiting lists on typical public housing? Have you seen how much the SNAP program has been cut? Have you seen the limits of medicaid? Are you aware of how underfunded our school systems are in general and how poorly educated students can be even if they've been given a diploma? Every single program you've listed has a coverage that is only a fraction of what it needs to be to actually keep people housed, fed, educated, and alive. Edit: Here are some interviews that explain what poverty is really like in the US today: http://www.wnyc.org/series/busted-americas-poverty-myths http://www.wnyc.org/series/busted-americas-poverty-myths
    - icantdrive55 9y ago
      Oh boy. Public housing: Section eight has been closed for years. The sign up list has been closed for years now--in many counties. Of yea, the current lease for Section 8 housing is 47 pages in my county. 47 pages of "can't, and do this!". It's beyond petty. Food Stamps: Requires a degrading elegabily approval. Designed so people just don't even sign up. (Clinton made it very degrading, and cut people off after a certain time period. Obama had a heart. Who know what Wonder boy will do to the program.) Then finding stores to buy food. Then being told you can't buy orange juice. Why--I don't know, just overheard the demeaning conversation. Another one that stuck with me. A mom bought a cheap birthday cake for her child. The Checker "schooled" her on how to bake a cake from scratch. The women said, "I need to buy 10 ingredients for one birthday cake?" Cashier, "I don't make the rules lady!". Yea--I wanted to pull the guy across the counter. She walked out in silence, with child looking perplexed. Public Education: great if you live in the right district. Medicaid/Medical: It's almost like having no insurance. So much is not covered. So many doctors don't take it. 30 day supplies on a very restrictive Formulary. I imagine it does when wheeled into the emergency rooms. So many of our Welfare Programs are purposely administered so people just give up. Personally, I think we need to open up any available federal, state, and county land to allow homeless to at least pitch a tent. Right now being homeless is for all practical purposes a crime. We are beyond finding solutions. Americans shouldn't be forced to sleep on the sidewalks--just waiting for a ticket, or being the victim of a random crime. We have a huge problem in America. And it's the way we treat those that don't fit in. Tech community should take notice. When the balloon pops; you just might see the misery first hand. I know Willie Brown is wondering out loud what San Francisco will do when Iwasfired.com happens.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - rsync 9y ago
    "Basic income, basic housing, basic food, basic education, basic healthcare?" I am open minded about UBI, etc. However, it has occurred to me recently that we already have a decent experimental result with regard to: "Basic income, basic housing, basic food, basic education, basic healthcare" Poor white people in the rural United States have all of those things. Even the poorest of them have basic food, housing and education that we might consider "first world". I notice that they aren't following their passions and climbing up to the peak of mazlows hierarchy. Instead, the lack of self-determination and "purpose" causes a despair that drives them to substance abuse. (apologies for the cascading UBI debate, below...)
    - kakarot 9y ago
      As someone who grew up a poor white person in the rural United States, what the heck are you talking about?
    - RandomInteger4 9y ago
      I don't think you know what you're talking about. Most places that offer food or financial assistance do so in a manner that is detrimental to those receiving it, specifically due to sentiments like yours. Those in power with similar political mindsets as you purposely neuter the usefulness of these programs, making them difficult to obtain and then taking them away for arbitrary reasons at the most inconvenient of times, setting back those relying on them, probably while they're trying to become financially stabilized.
      - rsync 9y ago
        " ... specifically due to sentiments like yours. Those in power with similar political mindsets as you purposely neuter the usefulness of these programs" The only sentiment I expressed was that I am open-minded about UBI. You have no idea what my political mindset is nor do you have any idea what my background is.
    - pmiller2 9y ago
      I think you need to provide some sources for the statement that poor people have "basic food, housing, and education." Education, sure, in the form of public k-12 schooling (which is not always great, but certainly qualifies as 'basic'). But, food and housing? Let's forget about "white" for a second: tell me, where does an able-bodied, poor person get basic, safe housing, and food that's at least somewhat healthy to survive on? Are you talking about section 8 and food stamps? Because if that's what you're talking about, that's not really what I would consider fulfilling the role of "basic housing and food."
  - gadders 9y ago
    Doesn't the military do that as well?
- laurencerowe 9y ago
  The same is said of San Francisco, but it's just not accurate: "The majority - 71 percent in the last count - became homeless while living in San Francisco." http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Questions-about-San-Francisco-s-homeless-answered-8323297.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Questions-about-San-Franc... Despite being one of the richest places in the world, California does a terrible job at providing affordable housing and accessible mental health care for its residents. This lack of provision is a result of the choices Californians have made.
  - WillPostForFood 9y ago
    That question doesn't capture the full picture. A high school dropout who arrived in SF w/$250 dollars and lived in a SRO for a year could qualify as becoming homeless while living in SF. I'm looking for more recent numbers, but in the past the number of homeless in SF that had been there more than 5 years was ~33%. For a variety of reasons, SF attracts people living on the margin, and prone to fall into homelessness. A couple numbers for context - only 65% of San Franciscans were even born in the US, and only 37% were born in California, so there is a huge flow of people into the city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_San_Francisco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_San_Francisco
    - pkaye 9y ago
      There is a homeless survey that SF does every few years which is comprehensive you can try searching for. In my recollection a majority of the homeless were longterm residents by any reasonable definition but I'm going off memory.
      - WillPostForFood 9y ago
        They don't ask the question. They only ask where the lived when they became homeless. IMO, they intentionally don't ask because the answer isn't helpful to increasing sympathy for the homeless.
  - StudentStuff 9y ago
- mobilefriendly 9y ago
  It isn't a national problem, it is a local one and almost entirely the result of local zoning and drug addict/mental health outreach strategies. San Diego has a homeless population of 14,000 out of a population of 3.3 million. Even the locals are saying the problem is strategy and leadership, not resources. http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/columnists/dan-mcswain/sd-fi-mcswain-homeless-emergency-measures-20170625-story.html http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/columnists/dan-...
  - rixed 9y ago
    When I visited California I was so shocked by how many people lived in the streets that I asked several people about it and have been told this story: http://www.povertyinsights.org/2013/10/14/did-reagans-crazy-mental-health-policies-cause-todays-homelessness/ http://www.povertyinsights.org/2013/10/14/did-reagans-crazy-... If this is true, don't you think it makes it a national problem?
    - Retric 9y ago
      2/3 of the homeless problem don't have a mental illness. Also, being homeless tends to bring any mental problems to the surface.
- lend000 9y ago
  Taboo question: What is an acceptable homeless population? What is your reference point? Obviously, poverty will always exist in some form, but how much can we realistically improve it?
  - dqpb 9y ago
    "Obviously, poverty will always exist in some form" It's not obvious to me why that should be true. What is your logic?
    - Xylakant 9y ago
      It sort of depends on the definition of poverty. Poverty is currently often defined as percentage of the median income and that would make it "exist" unless all income would be close to the median. It's possible to conceive a society that distributes wealth in such a manner, but I'd currently regard that as implausible.
      - nr23 9y ago
        What you describe is "relative poverty". Statistics indeed says this will always exist. This is about inequality. That's not very relevant here. When talking about homelessness, you're talking about "absolute poverty": the lack of means necessary to meet your basic needs (food, clothing, shelter). In this case, by definition, you can't meet at least the need for shelter. There's no reason that homelessness (or even absolute poverty) should always exist.
        Xylakant 9y ago
        Homelessness is a problem related to poverty, but it's cause is not always poverty alone. Homelessness exists in Berlin, where most of the homeless are covered by basic social security and have a right that the state provides a home. It's still there. It's often related to a mental health problem, though the initial cause and effect are muddied. I'd advocate for treating homelessness as a (public) health issue (with associated funding, ...) Absolute poverty should not exist in germany at all, but relative poverty is still a major issue: no access to a lot of the public life, less access to education, these are still problematic, even if the basic survival is ensured.
latchkey 9y ago
This makes me really sad. I'm originally from San Diego and left when I was 18. At one point my mother was even homeless there (alcohol abuse). A lot of homeless people travel up and down the coast (meaning, this could spread). Many of them refuse treatment or can't abide by the rules of the house, so they get kicked out. I'm living in Saigon now. While millions of people here are painfully poor and have almost nothing, they almost all have somewhere to live. There is drug use, but it is really looked down upon. I see signs everywhere warning people able the dangers. People seem to take care of each other more as a clan, as a family, as humans. I recently went back to San Francisco to sell everything and move to SE Asia full time. I'm never going back. The homeless in SF was awful. MUNI and Bart have people openly defecating, shooting up and sleeping in the stations. Nobody does anything about it. It is a really sad situation.
- gedy 9y ago
  > Many of them refuse treatment or can't abide by the rules of the house, so they get kicked out. > While millions of people here are painfully poor and have almost nothing, they almost all have somewhere to live. I think these are the two key points. Many countries allow and tolerate slums and cheap, DIY housing that people own or 'own'. The US has not tolerated slums in 100 years, and the past 50 years has really tightened the regulations on the quality, safety and 'DIY-ness' of housing. The poor get funneled into 'free' housing, but as gov't programs these are not owned and do not tolerate breaking the rules. Especially by the tax payers who fund them. Not sure I see a quick solution as each of these are reasonable on their own. I do think cheap, 'ugly' housing owned and maintained by the low income ends up better than most gov't housing projects in the US.
  - latchkey 9y ago
    You make a really good point about the slums. I spent 4 hours yesterday motorbike driving around and exploring District 8 in Saigon, which is a series of man made islands separated by water canals (sadly full of sewage and trash). Many of the homes near the water are illegal slums and could be torn down by the govt. at any time. Yet, from appearances, it looks like a long time since that has happened. I suspect they'd just rebuild anyway. Every legal house has a 'name book' that has the names of the people who live there in it. The really sad bit it is that no book means to no school for the kids who live there. Even with no school, no safe house to live, literally every one I saw was smiling and friendly. This is such a different planet from where I came from and I find my mind expanded every day I'm here.
downrightmike 9y ago
> The California State Legislature is reviewing whether the amount of health resources in the county are adequate. Its findings are expected within the next several months. The closing lines tell that there's not enough being done if this has been going on for 10 months. Almost like the start of a zombie movie. "Nothing going on here, we're assessing the situation" Then boom, national guard and CDC checkpoints.
hilyen 9y ago
I work in East Village, have for a few years. I'd say part of the problem is the local gov decided upkeep of the public restrooms they had was too expensive, so they removed them. They kind of shot themselves in the foot it seems. http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sdut-portland-loo-remove-crime-cost-restroom-2016feb05-story.html http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sdut-portl...
rabboRubble 9y ago
This is why I fought my doctor and my insurance plan for the HepA/HepB vaccines. Doctor did not think it was needed as I was not a medical professional. Insurance company was being cheap. I had to point out that they were both on the CDC recommended vaccination list for all adults. The moment there is a safe enough HepC vaccine out, I will be getting it. I'd rather have AIDS over HC. Nasty disease with nasty drugs.
- tbarbugli 9y ago
  FYI there is a cure for HepC nowadays that actually works, if it did not cost >10k we could probably get rid of HepC for good.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    What I can find says $80k+ for the existing Hep C treatments. Wow.
mnm1 9y ago
There's a Hepatitis A vaccine and it's readily available, yet trying to get a doctor to give you one requires a lot of conning and manipulation. Why is this? They say this is a disease only found in other countries, so if you tell your doctor you travel a lot, they'll finally give in and give it to you. How about giving the vaccine as a default? Clearly, San Diego is not in another country. This should be a standard vaccine encouraged and administered to anyone and everyone who wants it. This is certainly not a healthcare system that works well or at all.
- Gustomaximus 9y ago
  Wow. In Australia, Norway and England theyll give you A/B vaccines easily on request. I find it hard to believe they wouldnt do tbis everywhere bar a few exceptional circumstances.
  - tallanvor 9y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if you get some resistance towards the Hep B vaccine unless the doctor knows you're in what is considered a high-risk group. The reason for this is that the vaccination requires a total of 4 shots - the first three are given in one month intervals, and then a final one a year after the 3rd. Because of this, there's a high rate of people not following through and getting all the required shots.
  - mnm1 9y ago
    Jus† got the Hep A. S†ill working to convince them about Hep B. Yup, we're really backward here in the states with our healthcare, even for people who have insurance / can pay. There are many, many other ways we're backward here. Let's just say outside of emergency care, healthcare here is just horrific. And that's putting it nicely. Insurance or no†.
Animats 9y ago
There's a good vaccine for Hepatitis A. And another one for Hepatitis B. Get inoculated.
- Gustomaximus 9y ago
  And remember Hep B is 2 shots several months apart.
  - tallanvor 9y ago
    4 shots. The first 3 given in one month intervals, and the 4th a year later.
    - Animats 9y ago
      Then you're done for maybe 25 years. At one time, the US did mass inoculations in schools, using air injectors. Just lined everybody up and zapped them.
ChrisNoPratt 9y ago
Ugly truth in any western country is the mental health issue. Here in Poland (i'm certain in USA is the same) many homeless people are mentally ill and refuses help in many cases. Also they get aggressive with people. Without those problems it would be much easier to help them.
- onion2k 9y ago
  Without those problems it would be much easier to help them. The solution to the problem is to eliminate the stigma of mental health issues, to subsidise mental health therapies, and educate people about the signs of deteriorating mental health so they can seek help earlier. If people can be helped before they're homeless then they'd never become a homeless person. That's better for everyone. I strongly suspect this would be incredibly hard to implement in any country that doesn't have a national health service though, and even if a country does it'd still be difficult.
EdSharkey 9y ago
Make living on the street a crime, take away people's freedom. Get them on a path back into society by placing them in work camps and reform them. Or, if they're mentally ill, properly hospitalize and care for them. If you do this, the looming public health crisis can be averted. Otherwise, plague.

91 points by Mz 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

It's way past time that we start dealing with homelessness as the national problem it is rather than leaving it to cities who are ill-equipped to deal with it. Cities like San Diego only have homelessness problems because they have weather that's amenable to living outdoors. The vast majority of their homeless population was born elsewhere. It's unconscionable that we leave the job of providing services for these people to these cities. When people are made homeless by hurricanes and flooding, we don't question the need to help and we give FEMA free license to spend what's necessary to provide support. And yet when it comes to the long-term homeless population, we act like there's no moral obligation to help. These kinds of outbreaks are just a natural and expected outcome when we take such a localized approach to homelessness.

bluejekyll 9y ago
Basic income, basic housing, basic food, basic education, basic healthcare? Seems like we need to address all of these issues. Literally the only institutions that provide all of these things are jails, which many homeless attempt to get into.
- ams6110 9y ago
  Not true at all. These things are all provided. Welfare, public housing, food stamps, public education, Medicaid. That we still have a homeless problem indicates that the reason for long-term homelessness is something else.
  - Mz 9y ago
    There is a really huge shortage of genuinely affordable housing in the US. Public housing is generally pretty crappy and in short supply to boot. Having studied the problem in an actual college class and also spent the last 5.5 years on the street: It's complicated. But we need more solutions for people and fewer aimed at poor people specifically. Programs to help the poor are routinely craptastic. Affordable housing and single payer medical coverage would go a long way towards reducing the problem.
    - hueving 9y ago
      >There is a really huge shortage of genuinely affordable housing in the US. Public housing is generally pretty crappy and in short supply to boot. This is disingenuous, the housing shortages are all in the highly desirable locations like the SFO, LAX, NYC, etc. There is no housing shortage in the vast majority of the country (look at Detroit). It's completely unsustainable to try to support a model where anyone should be able to live in whatever city they choose for an extremely low cost.
      - thebooktocome 9y ago
        Follow this line of thought long enough, and you get to a hukou system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system
        EGreg 9y ago
        Is that good or bad? Listen, I support single payer systems, but how do they figure out how much to pay in each region? Same question for UBI. I have come to believe that UBI and all other safety nets have to come with immigration requirements. Not just everyone is going to be accepted to live among rich billionaires without concern for running out of money. And so on in every neighborhood. Thus, UBI needs for each area needs to be tied in with community membership, and be based on the Consumer Price Index in that area. Communities can open themselves up to more people from time to time.
        9y ago
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    All the programs you named are chronically underfunded and subject to restrictions and red tape designed to force people to jump through many hoops to prove they "deserve" help. And there is a nasty history of attitudes among those in power as to what kind of people "deserve" help and what kind of people don't. Well-funded truly universal (i.e., every citizen is automatically eligible and automatically presumed eligible by the administering agency) have not been tried in the US.
  - drcross 9y ago
    >That we still have a homeless problem indicates that the reason for long-term homelessness is something else. I presumed it was common knowledge that the vast majority of homeless people have mental health issues. America seems to lack any public mental health services. I was disgusted by the number of disturbed homeless people roaming the streets of California when I visited in ways you never see in most of europe. There seems to be absolutely no support for the most vulnerable in society over there.
    - tjalfi 9y ago
      The following is an excerpt from [0]. Around the same time, the Court ruled, in O’Connor v. Donaldson, that a Florida man named Kenneth Donaldson had been kept against his will in a state psychiatric hospital for nearly fifteen years. The ruling added momentum to a nationwide campaign to “deinstitutionalize” the mentally ill. Activists decried the existence of mental hospitals that were filled, as one account put it, with “naked humans herded like cattle.” During the next two decades, states across the country shut down such facilities, both to save money and to appease advocates pushing for reform. But instead of funding more humane modes of treatment—such as community mental-health centers that could help patients live independently—many states left the mentally ill to their own devices. Often, highly unstable people ended up on the streets, abusing drugs and committing crimes, which led them into the prison system. [0] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/02/the-torturing-of-mentally-ill-prisoners http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/02/the-torturing-o...
      - andirk 9y ago
        It's a lot easier to help a guilty person with "correctional" incarceration than it is to help an innocent person with a path to a decent life.
  - InclinedPlane 9y ago
    That's ... a fantasy. Do you understand the limits of welfare? Do you know the waiting lists on typical public housing? Have you seen how much the SNAP program has been cut? Have you seen the limits of medicaid? Are you aware of how underfunded our school systems are in general and how poorly educated students can be even if they've been given a diploma? Every single program you've listed has a coverage that is only a fraction of what it needs to be to actually keep people housed, fed, educated, and alive. Edit: Here are some interviews that explain what poverty is really like in the US today: http://www.wnyc.org/series/busted-americas-poverty-myths http://www.wnyc.org/series/busted-americas-poverty-myths
  - icantdrive55 9y ago
    Oh boy. Public housing: Section eight has been closed for years. The sign up list has been closed for years now--in many counties. Of yea, the current lease for Section 8 housing is 47 pages in my county. 47 pages of "can't, and do this!". It's beyond petty. Food Stamps: Requires a degrading elegabily approval. Designed so people just don't even sign up. (Clinton made it very degrading, and cut people off after a certain time period. Obama had a heart. Who know what Wonder boy will do to the program.) Then finding stores to buy food. Then being told you can't buy orange juice. Why--I don't know, just overheard the demeaning conversation. Another one that stuck with me. A mom bought a cheap birthday cake for her child. The Checker "schooled" her on how to bake a cake from scratch. The women said, "I need to buy 10 ingredients for one birthday cake?" Cashier, "I don't make the rules lady!". Yea--I wanted to pull the guy across the counter. She walked out in silence, with child looking perplexed. Public Education: great if you live in the right district. Medicaid/Medical: It's almost like having no insurance. So much is not covered. So many doctors don't take it. 30 day supplies on a very restrictive Formulary. I imagine it does when wheeled into the emergency rooms. So many of our Welfare Programs are purposely administered so people just give up. Personally, I think we need to open up any available federal, state, and county land to allow homeless to at least pitch a tent. Right now being homeless is for all practical purposes a crime. We are beyond finding solutions. Americans shouldn't be forced to sleep on the sidewalks--just waiting for a ticket, or being the victim of a random crime. We have a huge problem in America. And it's the way we treat those that don't fit in. Tech community should take notice. When the balloon pops; you just might see the misery first hand. I know Willie Brown is wondering out loud what San Francisco will do when Iwasfired.com happens.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rsync 9y ago
  "Basic income, basic housing, basic food, basic education, basic healthcare?" I am open minded about UBI, etc. However, it has occurred to me recently that we already have a decent experimental result with regard to: "Basic income, basic housing, basic food, basic education, basic healthcare" Poor white people in the rural United States have all of those things. Even the poorest of them have basic food, housing and education that we might consider "first world". I notice that they aren't following their passions and climbing up to the peak of mazlows hierarchy. Instead, the lack of self-determination and "purpose" causes a despair that drives them to substance abuse. (apologies for the cascading UBI debate, below...)
  - kakarot 9y ago
    As someone who grew up a poor white person in the rural United States, what the heck are you talking about?
  - RandomInteger4 9y ago
    I don't think you know what you're talking about. Most places that offer food or financial assistance do so in a manner that is detrimental to those receiving it, specifically due to sentiments like yours. Those in power with similar political mindsets as you purposely neuter the usefulness of these programs, making them difficult to obtain and then taking them away for arbitrary reasons at the most inconvenient of times, setting back those relying on them, probably while they're trying to become financially stabilized.
    - rsync 9y ago
      " ... specifically due to sentiments like yours. Those in power with similar political mindsets as you purposely neuter the usefulness of these programs" The only sentiment I expressed was that I am open-minded about UBI. You have no idea what my political mindset is nor do you have any idea what my background is.
  - pmiller2 9y ago
    I think you need to provide some sources for the statement that poor people have "basic food, housing, and education." Education, sure, in the form of public k-12 schooling (which is not always great, but certainly qualifies as 'basic'). But, food and housing? Let's forget about "white" for a second: tell me, where does an able-bodied, poor person get basic, safe housing, and food that's at least somewhat healthy to survive on? Are you talking about section 8 and food stamps? Because if that's what you're talking about, that's not really what I would consider fulfilling the role of "basic housing and food."
- gadders 9y ago
  Doesn't the military do that as well?
laurencerowe 9y ago
The same is said of San Francisco, but it's just not accurate: "The majority - 71 percent in the last count - became homeless while living in San Francisco." http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Questions-about-San-Francisco-s-homeless-answered-8323297.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Questions-about-San-Franc... Despite being one of the richest places in the world, California does a terrible job at providing affordable housing and accessible mental health care for its residents. This lack of provision is a result of the choices Californians have made.
- WillPostForFood 9y ago
  That question doesn't capture the full picture. A high school dropout who arrived in SF w/$250 dollars and lived in a SRO for a year could qualify as becoming homeless while living in SF. I'm looking for more recent numbers, but in the past the number of homeless in SF that had been there more than 5 years was ~33%. For a variety of reasons, SF attracts people living on the margin, and prone to fall into homelessness. A couple numbers for context - only 65% of San Franciscans were even born in the US, and only 37% were born in California, so there is a huge flow of people into the city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_San_Francisco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_San_Francisco
  - pkaye 9y ago
    There is a homeless survey that SF does every few years which is comprehensive you can try searching for. In my recollection a majority of the homeless were longterm residents by any reasonable definition but I'm going off memory.
    - WillPostForFood 9y ago
      They don't ask the question. They only ask where the lived when they became homeless. IMO, they intentionally don't ask because the answer isn't helpful to increasing sympathy for the homeless.
- StudentStuff 9y ago
mobilefriendly 9y ago
It isn't a national problem, it is a local one and almost entirely the result of local zoning and drug addict/mental health outreach strategies. San Diego has a homeless population of 14,000 out of a population of 3.3 million. Even the locals are saying the problem is strategy and leadership, not resources. http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/columnists/dan-mcswain/sd-fi-mcswain-homeless-emergency-measures-20170625-story.html http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/columnists/dan-...
- rixed 9y ago
  When I visited California I was so shocked by how many people lived in the streets that I asked several people about it and have been told this story: http://www.povertyinsights.org/2013/10/14/did-reagans-crazy-mental-health-policies-cause-todays-homelessness/ http://www.povertyinsights.org/2013/10/14/did-reagans-crazy-... If this is true, don't you think it makes it a national problem?
  - Retric 9y ago
    2/3 of the homeless problem don't have a mental illness. Also, being homeless tends to bring any mental problems to the surface.
lend000 9y ago
Taboo question: What is an acceptable homeless population? What is your reference point? Obviously, poverty will always exist in some form, but how much can we realistically improve it?
- dqpb 9y ago
  "Obviously, poverty will always exist in some form" It's not obvious to me why that should be true. What is your logic?
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    It sort of depends on the definition of poverty. Poverty is currently often defined as percentage of the median income and that would make it "exist" unless all income would be close to the median. It's possible to conceive a society that distributes wealth in such a manner, but I'd currently regard that as implausible.
    - nr23 9y ago
      What you describe is "relative poverty". Statistics indeed says this will always exist. This is about inequality. That's not very relevant here. When talking about homelessness, you're talking about "absolute poverty": the lack of means necessary to meet your basic needs (food, clothing, shelter). In this case, by definition, you can't meet at least the need for shelter. There's no reason that homelessness (or even absolute poverty) should always exist.
      - Xylakant 9y ago
        Homelessness is a problem related to poverty, but it's cause is not always poverty alone. Homelessness exists in Berlin, where most of the homeless are covered by basic social security and have a right that the state provides a home. It's still there. It's often related to a mental health problem, though the initial cause and effect are muddied. I'd advocate for treating homelessness as a (public) health issue (with associated funding, ...) Absolute poverty should not exist in germany at all, but relative poverty is still a major issue: no access to a lot of the public life, less access to education, these are still problematic, even if the basic survival is ensured.

latchkey 9y ago

This makes me really sad. I'm originally from San Diego and left when I was 18. At one point my mother was even homeless there (alcohol abuse). A lot of homeless people travel up and down the coast (meaning, this could spread). Many of them refuse treatment or can't abide by the rules of the house, so they get kicked out. I'm living in Saigon now. While millions of people here are painfully poor and have almost nothing, they almost all have somewhere to live. There is drug use, but it is really looked down upon. I see signs everywhere warning people able the dangers. People seem to take care of each other more as a clan, as a family, as humans. I recently went back to San Francisco to sell everything and move to SE Asia full time. I'm never going back. The homeless in SF was awful. MUNI and Bart have people openly defecating, shooting up and sleeping in the stations. Nobody does anything about it. It is a really sad situation.

gedy 9y ago
> Many of them refuse treatment or can't abide by the rules of the house, so they get kicked out. > While millions of people here are painfully poor and have almost nothing, they almost all have somewhere to live. I think these are the two key points. Many countries allow and tolerate slums and cheap, DIY housing that people own or 'own'. The US has not tolerated slums in 100 years, and the past 50 years has really tightened the regulations on the quality, safety and 'DIY-ness' of housing. The poor get funneled into 'free' housing, but as gov't programs these are not owned and do not tolerate breaking the rules. Especially by the tax payers who fund them. Not sure I see a quick solution as each of these are reasonable on their own. I do think cheap, 'ugly' housing owned and maintained by the low income ends up better than most gov't housing projects in the US.
- latchkey 9y ago
  You make a really good point about the slums. I spent 4 hours yesterday motorbike driving around and exploring District 8 in Saigon, which is a series of man made islands separated by water canals (sadly full of sewage and trash). Many of the homes near the water are illegal slums and could be torn down by the govt. at any time. Yet, from appearances, it looks like a long time since that has happened. I suspect they'd just rebuild anyway. Every legal house has a 'name book' that has the names of the people who live there in it. The really sad bit it is that no book means to no school for the kids who live there. Even with no school, no safe house to live, literally every one I saw was smiling and friendly. This is such a different planet from where I came from and I find my mind expanded every day I'm here.

downrightmike 9y ago

> The California State Legislature is reviewing whether the amount of health resources in the county are adequate. Its findings are expected within the next several months. The closing lines tell that there's not enough being done if this has been going on for 10 months. Almost like the start of a zombie movie. "Nothing going on here, we're assessing the situation" Then boom, national guard and CDC checkpoints.

hilyen 9y ago

I work in East Village, have for a few years. I'd say part of the problem is the local gov decided upkeep of the public restrooms they had was too expensive, so they removed them. They kind of shot themselves in the foot it seems. http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sdut-portland-loo-remove-crime-cost-restroom-2016feb05-story.html http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sdut-portl...

rabboRubble 9y ago

This is why I fought my doctor and my insurance plan for the HepA/HepB vaccines. Doctor did not think it was needed as I was not a medical professional. Insurance company was being cheap. I had to point out that they were both on the CDC recommended vaccination list for all adults. The moment there is a safe enough HepC vaccine out, I will be getting it. I'd rather have AIDS over HC. Nasty disease with nasty drugs.

tbarbugli 9y ago
FYI there is a cure for HepC nowadays that actually works, if it did not cost >10k we could probably get rid of HepC for good.
- tyingq 9y ago
  What I can find says $80k+ for the existing Hep C treatments. Wow.

mnm1 9y ago

There's a Hepatitis A vaccine and it's readily available, yet trying to get a doctor to give you one requires a lot of conning and manipulation. Why is this? They say this is a disease only found in other countries, so if you tell your doctor you travel a lot, they'll finally give in and give it to you. How about giving the vaccine as a default? Clearly, San Diego is not in another country. This should be a standard vaccine encouraged and administered to anyone and everyone who wants it. This is certainly not a healthcare system that works well or at all.

Gustomaximus 9y ago
Wow. In Australia, Norway and England theyll give you A/B vaccines easily on request. I find it hard to believe they wouldnt do tbis everywhere bar a few exceptional circumstances.
- tallanvor 9y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if you get some resistance towards the Hep B vaccine unless the doctor knows you're in what is considered a high-risk group. The reason for this is that the vaccination requires a total of 4 shots - the first three are given in one month intervals, and then a final one a year after the 3rd. Because of this, there's a high rate of people not following through and getting all the required shots.
- mnm1 9y ago
  Jus† got the Hep A. S†ill working to convince them about Hep B. Yup, we're really backward here in the states with our healthcare, even for people who have insurance / can pay. There are many, many other ways we're backward here. Let's just say outside of emergency care, healthcare here is just horrific. And that's putting it nicely. Insurance or no†.

Animats 9y ago

There's a good vaccine for Hepatitis A. And another one for Hepatitis B. Get inoculated.

Gustomaximus 9y ago
And remember Hep B is 2 shots several months apart.
- tallanvor 9y ago
  4 shots. The first 3 given in one month intervals, and the 4th a year later.
  - Animats 9y ago
    Then you're done for maybe 25 years. At one time, the US did mass inoculations in schools, using air injectors. Just lined everybody up and zapped them.

ChrisNoPratt 9y ago

Ugly truth in any western country is the mental health issue. Here in Poland (i'm certain in USA is the same) many homeless people are mentally ill and refuses help in many cases. Also they get aggressive with people. Without those problems it would be much easier to help them.

onion2k 9y ago
Without those problems it would be much easier to help them. The solution to the problem is to eliminate the stigma of mental health issues, to subsidise mental health therapies, and educate people about the signs of deteriorating mental health so they can seek help earlier. If people can be helped before they're homeless then they'd never become a homeless person. That's better for everyone. I strongly suspect this would be incredibly hard to implement in any country that doesn't have a national health service though, and even if a country does it'd still be difficult.

EdSharkey 9y ago

Make living on the street a crime, take away people's freedom. Get them on a path back into society by placing them in work camps and reform them. Or, if they're mentally ill, properly hospitalize and care for them. If you do this, the looming public health crisis can be averted. Otherwise, plague.