4 ms·

Tinder and the Dating Apocalypse (2015)

32 points by hacknrk 9y ago

kyleschiller 9y ago
Missing (2015) tag. It's easy to read this as another shitty "millennial are ruining X" article that piles anecdotes on top of popular stereotypes, though it is maybe worth noting that marriage rates really are declining pretty quickly and consistently [0]. [0]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/144-years-of-marriage-and-divorce-in-the-united-states-in-one-chart/?utm_term=.799c9dafbbe6 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/144-y...
- kyleschiller 9y ago
  If the whole "apocalypse" thing seems alarmist, consider that Japan's birth/death ratio has been <1 for a while, and is now a matter of national concern.[0] Of course, that's only a real problem if our immigration policies continue deteriorating. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Japan]
  - wongarsu 9y ago
    Japan's birth/death rate is fairly bad, but at least their fertility rate is increasing again since 2005 after steady decline. Given the current path they look on their way to restoring a healthy birth/death ratio within a few decades. Meanwhile the US birth rate doesn't seem to be tanking from online dating[1]. There has been some decline since 2005, but it seems to be bottoming out and is still well above 1975-1980 levels. In the grand scheme of things that's just normal fluctuation [2]. Of course 1.85 is still way too low to be self-sustaining, but Tinder doesn't seem to be the problem. The EU fertility rate seems similarly unimpressed by the advent of online dating (being above the levels of 2000, but still uncomfortably close to those of Japan) [3]. If there's an apocalypse, it's the one caused by wide availability of the birth control pill. That really upset out demographic pyramids. Online dating meanwhile doesn't seem to have any measurable impact so far. 1:https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?locations=US-JP&year_high_desc=false https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?location... 2: http://www.prb.org/images12/us-fertility-figure1.gif http://www.prb.org/images12/us-fertility-figure1.gif 3: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?locations=EU&year_high_desc=false https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?location...
newprint 9y ago
I am 34 year old male, Baltimore, MD. Read the article. I feel sorry for the both parties. By the time they reach 30, they will be cynical fuckers who don't understand what is family is for. It is impossible to have sex with different women(man) every week and not become cynical to the point, you don't give a damn.
- newprint 9y ago
  To add to the point. I have couple friends, who are in their 40's. They find women on dating sites (anywhere in the US), arrange the "hook-up", buy the ticket, fly-in, have sex and fly-out. None of them have a stable families. They are highly cynical people. Just fuck and get out. Don't be like that. You will grow older, lonely, without families. Stable family is what you will keep you sane, once you reach 45. (Unless your Erdős)
  - CuriouslyC 9y ago
    I'm sorry, but if you "need" a family to stay sane, that is a sign of an underlying problem, and instead of running from it you should tackle it.
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  36 in NoVa and I agree.
- jonesin 9y ago
  At the same time, after 10 years of no interest in women and vice versa (I'm 30), and watching all my friends and workmates of both sexes go through so much turmoil in their romantic lives, I've become a bitterly cynical fucker. Of course, I haven't ever used any of these apps or websites - maybe I've been left by the wayside because of it. I'm just not interested in finding someone that way - I've no interest in a random hookup or a programmatic finding of a long-term relationship.
  - newprint 9y ago
    You can't become Cynical fucker. Go through the turmoil. I am 34/M. And had few women in my live. I meet a love of my love from Switzerland, 34F. Nothing worked out, I was left devastated. But it is best experience in my life(35y/o.M). Do it. You will become a better man. Majority of my friend divorced by the time they reach 35-40. They have kids. They have someone to look after AND they have kids that will look after them !!!
pbiggar 9y ago
There was an excellent response to this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/26/hookup-culture-isnt-the-problem-facing-singles-today-its-math/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/26/...
- trentmb 9y ago
  > This surplus of women is not just “perceived” but very, very real. Man, I must be a heaping turd then.
  - paulddraper 9y ago
    The author arrives at that conclusion based purely on the # of college grads. But while comparing current numbers to past ones, he forgets that the relationship between the sexes has changed significantly. E.g., women are far less reliant on men. I think this would significantly affect the conclusion.
grzm 9y ago
Discussion at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10019149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10019149
Overtonwindow 9y ago
The appearance of a limitless supply gives the false confidence that a perfect match will be found. Technology, IMHO, has removed all courtship and romance out of dating. It woukd be interesting to see more of a Tinder of blind dates, no photos, and a requirement that you spend time talking on the phone or texting the perfect before you see their photo.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  That more or less described eHarmony, at least as of about a decade ago.
- corporateslave3 9y ago
  Yeah, its a trap generally. In theory your dating matches are limitless, in reality they are much more constrained. This is how the dating atmosphere in NYC generally works, a ton of people with too many mediocre options.
  - shubb 9y ago
    Aren't you really saying that they are narcissists? The job market is a bit like this - a lot of job opennings and a lot of applicants. If all of the jobs you are qualified for are beneath you, then you need to fix your head. And if you want stability, but the only jobs that pay what you deserve are short terms contracts, then you need to consider your priorities. We tell people not to settle, because getting deeply emotionally involved with someone unsuitable ends painfully. As does trying a committed relationship and realizing that you could do better. But 'settling' for someone as attractive, clever, funny and sane as you are is not settling.
  - stepanhruda 9y ago
    Saw an article recently stating * bottom 80% of the men all compete for 20% of the women who actually respond to them * the other 80% of the women only respond to the top 20% of the men
    - corporateslave3 9y ago
kyleschiller 9y ago
One factor largely absent here (and actually obscured by their choice to interview investment bankers) is the huge amount of financial anxiety facing young people in America.[0] Crippling student debt, a lack of savings and inability to find high-paying jobs can make the prospects of starting a family or even serious relationship hugely unattractive. The assertion in this article that Tinder is great because you can hook up “without spending any money,” sounds callous coming from investment bankers, but for a ton of people, that's just the reality of the current dating landscape. If you're focused on paying back loans and working pretty much anywhere other than tech/finance/consulting, it really can feel hard to afford to date the conventional way. [0]http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/28/pf/financial-anxiety/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/28/pf/financial-anxiety/index.h...
- sverige 9y ago
  There's also the high risk of marriage ending in divorce and losing half (or more) of your financial assets when the relationship falls apart. That has been keeping a lot of men from marrying, which is another factor that drives some portion of them to avoid marriage by design.
  - smnrchrds 9y ago
    Wouldn't that only be the case if there is a huge disparity in wealth and income between spouses? If professionals marry other professionals, similar to how doctors mostly marry other doctors, that shouldn't be a problem.
    - sokoloff 9y ago
      Shouldn't...unless there are kids in the picture.
    - paulddraper 9y ago
      > Wouldn't that only be the case if there is a huge disparity in wealth and income between spouses? IDK about "huge", but that is often that case, one way or the other.
olivermarks 9y ago
Great article. It's from 2015..Would love to see two authors/perspectives, one male, one female, and to see what has evolved by 2018...
Bakary 9y ago
The unintended picture painted by the article is that this state of affairs only benefits attractive men. I'm not familiar with the platform but I somehow doubt that the majority of male Tinder users can get away with rude comments or a cavalier attitude and still womanize. On the contrary I keep hearing about men failing to garner a single match or sexual encounter independently of whether their behavior was crass or not.
Mz 9y ago
I decided at age 16 to opt out of "dating." To my mind, "dating" is about men spending money on women in hopes of getting laid. It isn't a great courtship model (courtship is the correct term for the lengthy process of establishing a serious, committed, long term relationship). Our dating practices are rooted in a culture where men make money, women are primarily wives and moms. This is no longer true, so it should be no surprise that dating is having a crisis. Though it is sad to read about how victimized the women in the article feel.
- corporateslave3 9y ago
  "To my mind, "dating" is about men spending money on women in hopes of getting laid" Real romance does happen, I have experienced it. Not everything revolves around money, especially when you are younger. In terms of getting laid, women actually dont really care about money, unless they are using sex to get a relationship. They want to sleep with a hot guy that they emotionally connect with for short term sex. The emotional and personal connection is actually sometimes the most important, confidence matters. "Our dating practices are rooted in a culture where men make money, women are primarily wives and moms. This is no longer true, so it should be no surprise that dating is having a crisis. Though it is sad to read about how victimized the women in the article feel." Generally its actually the opposite, women are not the victims. A large proportion of average men are not able to sleep with or date women of their same ranking until those women hit their late twenties. 80% of women are chasing the top 20% of men, with the rest of men occasionally "getting lucky".
  - TheGrassyKnoll 9y ago
    That's kind of what I was figuring. 20% of the people getting 80% of the sex. (I'm not in the 20%)
    - corporateslave3 9y ago
      But you can be
olivermarks 9y ago
Tinder Gold now number one app on AppStore https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/01/tinder-hits-top-grossing-app-in-the-app-store-on-heels-of-tinder-gold-launch/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/01/tinder-hits-top-grossing-a...
megamindbrian 9y ago
This is so toxic to developing a healthy han relationship. Aren't these people afraid of being desensitized to emotional connection?

32 points by hacknrk 9y ago

Missing (2015) tag. It's easy to read this as another shitty "millennial are ruining X" article that piles anecdotes on top of popular stereotypes, though it is maybe worth noting that marriage rates really are declining pretty quickly and consistently [0]. [0]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/144-years-of-marriage-and-divorce-in-the-united-states-in-one-chart/?utm_term=.799c9dafbbe6 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/144-y...

kyleschiller 9y ago
If the whole "apocalypse" thing seems alarmist, consider that Japan's birth/death ratio has been <1 for a while, and is now a matter of national concern.[0] Of course, that's only a real problem if our immigration policies continue deteriorating. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Japan]
- wongarsu 9y ago
  Japan's birth/death rate is fairly bad, but at least their fertility rate is increasing again since 2005 after steady decline. Given the current path they look on their way to restoring a healthy birth/death ratio within a few decades. Meanwhile the US birth rate doesn't seem to be tanking from online dating[1]. There has been some decline since 2005, but it seems to be bottoming out and is still well above 1975-1980 levels. In the grand scheme of things that's just normal fluctuation [2]. Of course 1.85 is still way too low to be self-sustaining, but Tinder doesn't seem to be the problem. The EU fertility rate seems similarly unimpressed by the advent of online dating (being above the levels of 2000, but still uncomfortably close to those of Japan) [3]. If there's an apocalypse, it's the one caused by wide availability of the birth control pill. That really upset out demographic pyramids. Online dating meanwhile doesn't seem to have any measurable impact so far. 1:https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?locations=US-JP&year_high_desc=false https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?location... 2: http://www.prb.org/images12/us-fertility-figure1.gif http://www.prb.org/images12/us-fertility-figure1.gif 3: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?locations=EU&year_high_desc=false https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?location...

newprint 9y ago

I am 34 year old male, Baltimore, MD. Read the article. I feel sorry for the both parties. By the time they reach 30, they will be cynical fuckers who don't understand what is family is for. It is impossible to have sex with different women(man) every week and not become cynical to the point, you don't give a damn.

newprint 9y ago
To add to the point. I have couple friends, who are in their 40's. They find women on dating sites (anywhere in the US), arrange the "hook-up", buy the ticket, fly-in, have sex and fly-out. None of them have a stable families. They are highly cynical people. Just fuck and get out. Don't be like that. You will grow older, lonely, without families. Stable family is what you will keep you sane, once you reach 45. (Unless your Erdős)
- CuriouslyC 9y ago
  I'm sorry, but if you "need" a family to stay sane, that is a sign of an underlying problem, and instead of running from it you should tackle it.
Overtonwindow 9y ago
36 in NoVa and I agree.
jonesin 9y ago
At the same time, after 10 years of no interest in women and vice versa (I'm 30), and watching all my friends and workmates of both sexes go through so much turmoil in their romantic lives, I've become a bitterly cynical fucker. Of course, I haven't ever used any of these apps or websites - maybe I've been left by the wayside because of it. I'm just not interested in finding someone that way - I've no interest in a random hookup or a programmatic finding of a long-term relationship.
- newprint 9y ago
  You can't become Cynical fucker. Go through the turmoil. I am 34/M. And had few women in my live. I meet a love of my love from Switzerland, 34F. Nothing worked out, I was left devastated. But it is best experience in my life(35y/o.M). Do it. You will become a better man. Majority of my friend divorced by the time they reach 35-40. They have kids. They have someone to look after AND they have kids that will look after them !!!

pbiggar 9y ago

There was an excellent response to this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/26/hookup-culture-isnt-the-problem-facing-singles-today-its-math/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/26/...

trentmb 9y ago
> This surplus of women is not just “perceived” but very, very real. Man, I must be a heaping turd then.
- paulddraper 9y ago
  The author arrives at that conclusion based purely on the # of college grads. But while comparing current numbers to past ones, he forgets that the relationship between the sexes has changed significantly. E.g., women are far less reliant on men. I think this would significantly affect the conclusion.

grzm 9y ago

Discussion at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10019149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10019149

Overtonwindow 9y ago

The appearance of a limitless supply gives the false confidence that a perfect match will be found. Technology, IMHO, has removed all courtship and romance out of dating. It woukd be interesting to see more of a Tinder of blind dates, no photos, and a requirement that you spend time talking on the phone or texting the perfect before you see their photo.

humanrebar 9y ago
That more or less described eHarmony, at least as of about a decade ago.
corporateslave3 9y ago
Yeah, its a trap generally. In theory your dating matches are limitless, in reality they are much more constrained. This is how the dating atmosphere in NYC generally works, a ton of people with too many mediocre options.
- shubb 9y ago
  Aren't you really saying that they are narcissists? The job market is a bit like this - a lot of job opennings and a lot of applicants. If all of the jobs you are qualified for are beneath you, then you need to fix your head. And if you want stability, but the only jobs that pay what you deserve are short terms contracts, then you need to consider your priorities. We tell people not to settle, because getting deeply emotionally involved with someone unsuitable ends painfully. As does trying a committed relationship and realizing that you could do better. But 'settling' for someone as attractive, clever, funny and sane as you are is not settling.
- stepanhruda 9y ago
  Saw an article recently stating * bottom 80% of the men all compete for 20% of the women who actually respond to them * the other 80% of the women only respond to the top 20% of the men
  - corporateslave3 9y ago

kyleschiller 9y ago

One factor largely absent here (and actually obscured by their choice to interview investment bankers) is the huge amount of financial anxiety facing young people in America.[0] Crippling student debt, a lack of savings and inability to find high-paying jobs can make the prospects of starting a family or even serious relationship hugely unattractive. The assertion in this article that Tinder is great because you can hook up “without spending any money,” sounds callous coming from investment bankers, but for a ton of people, that's just the reality of the current dating landscape. If you're focused on paying back loans and working pretty much anywhere other than tech/finance/consulting, it really can feel hard to afford to date the conventional way. [0]http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/28/pf/financial-anxiety/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/28/pf/financial-anxiety/index.h...

sverige 9y ago
There's also the high risk of marriage ending in divorce and losing half (or more) of your financial assets when the relationship falls apart. That has been keeping a lot of men from marrying, which is another factor that drives some portion of them to avoid marriage by design.
- smnrchrds 9y ago
  Wouldn't that only be the case if there is a huge disparity in wealth and income between spouses? If professionals marry other professionals, similar to how doctors mostly marry other doctors, that shouldn't be a problem.
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    Shouldn't...unless there are kids in the picture.
  - paulddraper 9y ago
    > Wouldn't that only be the case if there is a huge disparity in wealth and income between spouses? IDK about "huge", but that is often that case, one way or the other.

olivermarks 9y ago

Great article. It's from 2015..Would love to see two authors/perspectives, one male, one female, and to see what has evolved by 2018...

Bakary 9y ago

The unintended picture painted by the article is that this state of affairs only benefits attractive men. I'm not familiar with the platform but I somehow doubt that the majority of male Tinder users can get away with rude comments or a cavalier attitude and still womanize. On the contrary I keep hearing about men failing to garner a single match or sexual encounter independently of whether their behavior was crass or not.

Mz 9y ago

I decided at age 16 to opt out of "dating." To my mind, "dating" is about men spending money on women in hopes of getting laid. It isn't a great courtship model (courtship is the correct term for the lengthy process of establishing a serious, committed, long term relationship). Our dating practices are rooted in a culture where men make money, women are primarily wives and moms. This is no longer true, so it should be no surprise that dating is having a crisis. Though it is sad to read about how victimized the women in the article feel.

corporateslave3 9y ago
"To my mind, "dating" is about men spending money on women in hopes of getting laid" Real romance does happen, I have experienced it. Not everything revolves around money, especially when you are younger. In terms of getting laid, women actually dont really care about money, unless they are using sex to get a relationship. They want to sleep with a hot guy that they emotionally connect with for short term sex. The emotional and personal connection is actually sometimes the most important, confidence matters. "Our dating practices are rooted in a culture where men make money, women are primarily wives and moms. This is no longer true, so it should be no surprise that dating is having a crisis. Though it is sad to read about how victimized the women in the article feel." Generally its actually the opposite, women are not the victims. A large proportion of average men are not able to sleep with or date women of their same ranking until those women hit their late twenties. 80% of women are chasing the top 20% of men, with the rest of men occasionally "getting lucky".
- TheGrassyKnoll 9y ago
  That's kind of what I was figuring. 20% of the people getting 80% of the sex. (I'm not in the 20%)
  - corporateslave3 9y ago
    But you can be

olivermarks 9y ago

Tinder Gold now number one app on AppStore https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/01/tinder-hits-top-grossing-app-in-the-app-store-on-heels-of-tinder-gold-launch/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/01/tinder-hits-top-grossing-a...

megamindbrian 9y ago

This is so toxic to developing a healthy han relationship. Aren't these people afraid of being desensitized to emotional connection?