6 ms·

Doing janitorial work is not a mistake, but being a janitor for 40 years certainly is. It's not the core job, it's the fact that there's zero growth or mobilit

Doing janitorial work is not a mistake, but being a janitor for 40 years certainly is. It's not the core job, it's the fact that there's zero growth or mobility even possible that is the issue.

wavefunction 9y ago
>It's not the core job, it's the fact that there's zero growth or mobility even possible that is the issue. Not everyone is a 'striver.' Some folks just want to pay their bills and enjoy what time they can with their family and friends.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  Even those 'non-striver' people would prefer to have growth over time, in their position, wage, and skills. Humans are not static - we like to learn and we get very frustrated when we can't improve over time.
  - barrkel 9y ago
    Do you think everybody finds growth and meaning in their job? Many people find it in their family, in sport, in clubs, and work is just a wage.
    - philjohn 9y ago
      And yet, the Janitor in this piece can't afford to take a holiday, so is it a stretch to assume she doesn't have much free time either?!?
      - bb88 9y ago
        Yes, if she's hourly, because they probably won't pay overtime.
      - jiggunjer 9y ago
        Maybe the fact that she's a single mom with 4 kids is a factor too. I think a janitor with a single dependent would have a more acceptable standard of living.
        jaggederest 9y ago
        Are you making a modest proposal that people should go from four kids to one, post facto? I think everyone deserves to be able to have vacation time, especially single parents.
        jiggunjer 9y ago
        I'm not proposing anything. Just suggesting that there are more factors than income that affect 'inequality'. An article that focusses on inequality due to low income should perhaps pick an example with a more typical family situation.
        URSpider94 9y ago
        Rewind 50 years, and it would be highly typical for a janitor to support a wife and 3 kids on HIS salary - families were larger, and mothers didn't work. The fact that a working single mom can't support her four kids today is indicative in and of itself.
        Chris2048 9y ago
        Would that janitor have many vacations too? And decent college funds? Healthcare?
        jaggederest 9y ago
        Yes, yes, and yes. Janitorial staff at a Ford plant in ~1965 would make enough to own their own house, vacation once a year (probably not by plane but...), and college was percentage-wise ridiculously cheaper - 30x if my calculations are correct, which they probably aren't, but hey. Healthcare would have unquestionably been provided by their employer. And all that on only a single income for a family of four, no less.
    - jaggederest 9y ago
      I don't think everybody finds all of their growth and meaning in their job, but I do think that everyone would like to have at least some growth and meaning in their job. Even if all you're doing is getting better at the job itself, people value mastery and expertise.
  - manicdee 9y ago
    Why does the growth and change have to come from the job?
- oarla 9y ago
  As a society, if we figure out an economic system which doesn't lead to inflation, then all would benefit by not having to grow their net worth, and in turn, have a job that doesn't have any growth prospects.
  - solomatov 9y ago
    How are growth prospect and inflation related? You can keep your net worth by investing into assets which have growth above the inflation level which isn't that hard.
    - oarla 9y ago
      By growth, I meant increase in wages to at least keep up with inflation. Janitorial jobs haven't kept up with inflation. Nowadays, rent increases by about 10% YoY. But wages don't increase by that much.
fiblye 9y ago
Life isn't all about getting promoted. Loads of people get far more satisfaction from knowing they're carrying out an important duty than they do from knowing they got promoted from Javascript Ninja to Javascript Assassin.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying getting promoted. I'm saying getting better at being a janitor, or rotating between different properties, or learning to do a little light maintenance, or operate a lift or clean windows, or anything to break up the 100% identical routine. If you're a contracted employee, there's zero investment in you as an employee. You come in, do the task, and leave.
  - rrauenza 9y ago
    You're touching upon a little of something called 'The Growth Mindset' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset#Fixed_and_growth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset#Fixed_and_growth In the Bay Area schools my kids attend, they are working hard to emphasize this growth mindset. I think it's huge component in job mobility, whether it be upward or sideways.
mikeash 9y ago
So, let's make growth and mobility possible for janitors. The whole point of the article is that it used to be, so we should be able to do it again.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  That's exactly what I'm saying, and I'm not sure why people in this thread are misunderstanding it.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    I thought you were saying that growth or mobility was inherently impossible for a janitor. Maybe because you describe being a janitor for 40 years as a mistake rather than as a failure of the system. Anyway, if you meant it the other way around then consider my reply some extra support for the idea.
    - jaggederest 9y ago
      I was just using the parent comment verbiage. Perhaps I should have quoted it. I meant a mistake by society, i.e. it's a mistake to put people in a dead-end job, functionally ever.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        Gotcha. Maybe it could have been worded better but I understand what you mean now, so it's all good.
solidsnack9000 9y ago
It is actually entirely fine, from the perspective of getting the job done, if someone is a janitor for forty years. There is no reason that being useful should net out to a bad life.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  Right. I'm saying there's no opportunity, not that there should be a requirement. I'm saying that we're trapping poor people in a world where they are totally powerless and that is fundamentally evil.
  - kakarot 9y ago
    As long as there are old, ugly men who want to have sex with young, beautiful women no matter the cost to either party, economic exploitation will remain at the heart of civilization, stunting our growth to the point of deformity.
    - jaggederest 9y ago
      Interestingly enough I don't think that's actually the warping factor any more. It used to be, certainly, but I think these days we've gone beyond "I would like to own people as chattel property", and all the way to "I want to be the biggest metaphorical genitalia in my particular subregion of the country"
      - kakarot 9y ago
        I see your point, though it does seem like these are both extensions of the same underlying instinctual desires present in males, mainly the need for dominance (expressed in only a small percentage of the population for evolutionary reasons) and the need for sexual gratification / production of offspring. Being the biggest metaphorical genitalia around will lead to fulfillment of both of those things.

Doing janitorial work is not a mistake, but being a janitor for 40 years certainly is. It's not the core job, it's the fact that there's zero growth or mobility even possible that is the issue.

wavefunction 9y ago

>It's not the core job, it's the fact that there's zero growth or mobility even possible that is the issue. Not everyone is a 'striver.' Some folks just want to pay their bills and enjoy what time they can with their family and friends.

jaggederest 9y ago
Even those 'non-striver' people would prefer to have growth over time, in their position, wage, and skills. Humans are not static - we like to learn and we get very frustrated when we can't improve over time.
- barrkel 9y ago
  Do you think everybody finds growth and meaning in their job? Many people find it in their family, in sport, in clubs, and work is just a wage.
  - philjohn 9y ago
    And yet, the Janitor in this piece can't afford to take a holiday, so is it a stretch to assume she doesn't have much free time either?!?
    - bb88 9y ago
      Yes, if she's hourly, because they probably won't pay overtime.
    - jiggunjer 9y ago
      Maybe the fact that she's a single mom with 4 kids is a factor too. I think a janitor with a single dependent would have a more acceptable standard of living.
      - jaggederest 9y ago
        Are you making a modest proposal that people should go from four kids to one, post facto? I think everyone deserves to be able to have vacation time, especially single parents.
        jiggunjer 9y ago
        I'm not proposing anything. Just suggesting that there are more factors than income that affect 'inequality'. An article that focusses on inequality due to low income should perhaps pick an example with a more typical family situation.
        URSpider94 9y ago
        Rewind 50 years, and it would be highly typical for a janitor to support a wife and 3 kids on HIS salary - families were larger, and mothers didn't work. The fact that a working single mom can't support her four kids today is indicative in and of itself.
        Chris2048 9y ago
        Would that janitor have many vacations too? And decent college funds? Healthcare?
        jaggederest 9y ago
        Yes, yes, and yes. Janitorial staff at a Ford plant in ~1965 would make enough to own their own house, vacation once a year (probably not by plane but...), and college was percentage-wise ridiculously cheaper - 30x if my calculations are correct, which they probably aren't, but hey. Healthcare would have unquestionably been provided by their employer. And all that on only a single income for a family of four, no less.
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    I don't think everybody finds all of their growth and meaning in their job, but I do think that everyone would like to have at least some growth and meaning in their job. Even if all you're doing is getting better at the job itself, people value mastery and expertise.
- manicdee 9y ago
  Why does the growth and change have to come from the job?
oarla 9y ago
As a society, if we figure out an economic system which doesn't lead to inflation, then all would benefit by not having to grow their net worth, and in turn, have a job that doesn't have any growth prospects.
- solomatov 9y ago
  How are growth prospect and inflation related? You can keep your net worth by investing into assets which have growth above the inflation level which isn't that hard.
  - oarla 9y ago
    By growth, I meant increase in wages to at least keep up with inflation. Janitorial jobs haven't kept up with inflation. Nowadays, rent increases by about 10% YoY. But wages don't increase by that much.

fiblye 9y ago

Life isn't all about getting promoted. Loads of people get far more satisfaction from knowing they're carrying out an important duty than they do from knowing they got promoted from Javascript Ninja to Javascript Assassin.

jaggederest 9y ago
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying getting promoted. I'm saying getting better at being a janitor, or rotating between different properties, or learning to do a little light maintenance, or operate a lift or clean windows, or anything to break up the 100% identical routine. If you're a contracted employee, there's zero investment in you as an employee. You come in, do the task, and leave.
- rrauenza 9y ago
  You're touching upon a little of something called 'The Growth Mindset' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset#Fixed_and_growth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset#Fixed_and_growth In the Bay Area schools my kids attend, they are working hard to emphasize this growth mindset. I think it's huge component in job mobility, whether it be upward or sideways.

mikeash 9y ago

So, let's make growth and mobility possible for janitors. The whole point of the article is that it used to be, so we should be able to do it again.

jaggederest 9y ago
That's exactly what I'm saying, and I'm not sure why people in this thread are misunderstanding it.
- mikeash 9y ago
  I thought you were saying that growth or mobility was inherently impossible for a janitor. Maybe because you describe being a janitor for 40 years as a mistake rather than as a failure of the system. Anyway, if you meant it the other way around then consider my reply some extra support for the idea.
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    I was just using the parent comment verbiage. Perhaps I should have quoted it. I meant a mistake by society, i.e. it's a mistake to put people in a dead-end job, functionally ever.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Gotcha. Maybe it could have been worded better but I understand what you mean now, so it's all good.

solidsnack9000 9y ago

It is actually entirely fine, from the perspective of getting the job done, if someone is a janitor for forty years. There is no reason that being useful should net out to a bad life.

jaggederest 9y ago
Right. I'm saying there's no opportunity, not that there should be a requirement. I'm saying that we're trapping poor people in a world where they are totally powerless and that is fundamentally evil.
- kakarot 9y ago
  As long as there are old, ugly men who want to have sex with young, beautiful women no matter the cost to either party, economic exploitation will remain at the heart of civilization, stunting our growth to the point of deformity.
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    Interestingly enough I don't think that's actually the warping factor any more. It used to be, certainly, but I think these days we've gone beyond "I would like to own people as chattel property", and all the way to "I want to be the biggest metaphorical genitalia in my particular subregion of the country"
    - kakarot 9y ago
      I see your point, though it does seem like these are both extensions of the same underlying instinctual desires present in males, mainly the need for dominance (expressed in only a small percentage of the population for evolutionary reasons) and the need for sexual gratification / production of offspring. Being the biggest metaphorical genitalia around will lead to fulfillment of both of those things.