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Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

64 points by jaxc 16y ago

sigzero 16y ago
I have not checked. Do other CMS projects force the GPL license on themes?
- pavs 16y ago
  Yup. See Also: Drupal.
  - michaeltwofish 16y ago
    Note that Drupal specifically excludes Javascript, images, Flash, from being GPL'd. http://drupal.org/licensing/faq#q7 http://drupal.org/licensing/faq#q7
    - maepaulino 16y ago
      That's what Matt's saying too. Only the PHP files in the theme are GPL.
johnnytee 16y ago
What's up with that esoteric rant about systems by Chris? What the hell is that guy talking about? Sounds like Sarah Palin.
- slantyyz 16y ago
  Maybe he gets "word salad" when he's wound up. And boy did he sound wound up.
  - pavs 16y ago
    Yeah, he was all over the place. Some people just can't talk on pressure situation. Quite a few time I had to go back and listen to what he was saying and still couldn't make sense. He just puts up a bunch of words together and it makes absolutely no sense. Sarah Palin is an apt comparison.
sushi 16y ago
Chris misinterprets GPL and fails to give valid argument. He even comes off as Sarah Palin of the WordPress community.
elbrodeur 16y ago
Chris Pearson's defense is thin at best: Switching to GPL wouldn't affect my business at all! It just rubs me the wrong way! Additionally, he comes across as a real jerk. EDIT: After listening to the whole thing I am appalled by Chris Pearson's lack of understanding about licensing and his offensive attitude. Matt Mullenweg deserves an award for being so gracious and patient.
- edash 16y ago
  It's unfortunate Chris showed himself this way. He came across as a nice guy and impressive business owner in his previous Mixergy interview. He is clearly emotionally invested in this debate and would be better off letting someone else represent his side in the future (PR person, lawyer, parrot etc).
- rick888 16y ago
  "Chris Pearson's defense is thin at best: Switching to GPL wouldn't affect my business at all! It just rubs me the wrong way!" It will ruin his business. Anyone that buys the thesis theme will be able to share it for free (and he will have no legal recourse). "Additionally, he comes across as a real jerk." so does Richard Stallman. I think he is sick of the GPL zealots hounding him. I would be too. "Matt Mullenweg deserves an award for being so gracious and patient." Matt Mullenweg wants all plugins and themes to be open sourced because he will be able to give them out for free with the WP platform (which will result in more users and more customers for the services that he charges for).
  - rick888 16y ago
    open source zealots are in full force tonight
  - Otto42 16y ago
    Anybody who buys it now can share it for free. You can get online, right now, and find a copy of thesis and download it without paying a dime. People who are doing this sort of thing aren't going to be stopped by text in a license.
- 16y ago
pavs 16y ago
Trying my best not to sound rude, but Chris Pearson sounds extremely obnoxious. His analogies are all over the place and very defensive; most likely because he realizes that he is on the wrong end of the debate. The license explicitly says it has to be GPL. End of discussion. He is making up his own rules!
- babyboy808 16y ago
  I honestly thought I was the only thinking this!
  - pavs 16y ago
    Confirmed this guy is obnoxious: http://i.imgur.com/wffx2.png http://i.imgur.com/wffx2.png My respect for Matt just jumped ten-fold for being so calm with this guy and I am not even a fan-boy.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - freerobby 16y ago
      Agreed.
      - wingnutart 16y ago
        Chris was a jerk this entire interview. Over and over again he was ranting and shouting Matt down. Matt was superb throughout; calm, patient, and prepared. He had one blurt-out, while Pearson frantically dug his own grave. Totally agreed.
    - Concours 16y ago
      fully agree, I was impress from Matt, seems to be an extremely smart and calm Guy.
- slantyyz 16y ago
  Obnoxious or not, I think the point of contention is whether a theme can considered a derivative work or not. I think you can easily find lawyers who would have no trouble arguing either side of the case.
jasonlbaptiste 16y ago
I'm trying to see the practical reasons of why NOT to use the GPL in this specific case. If people are going to steal thesis they will steal it. GPL doesn't change that. Here's what I want yo know: how many people has chris asked to stop illegally distributing thesis? This is interesting to me as I'm releasing something very cool re: wordpress themes next week.
- rick888 16y ago
  "If people are going to steal thesis they will steal it. GPL doesn't change that." No, it doesn't. But it doesn't give you any right to stop people from stealing it. Someone could also come out with the thesis 2 theme, not change anything about it, and start selling it. Chris would have no recourse.
  - icey 16y ago
    It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it.
    - rick888 16y ago
      "It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it." Not really. Thesis shouldn't be considered a derivative work. If it is, than any application that runs under Linux should also be considered a derivative work (you need Linux to run the app..right?). Should any app compiled using GCC be considered derivative work?
      - winthrowe 16y ago
        There's a specific exemption in the license for this though: "The permission you need—to convey the object code from these GCC libraries under your own project's license—is primarily contained in section 2: You have permission to propagate a work of Target Code formed by combining the Runtime Library with Independent Modules, even if such propagation would otherwise violate the terms of GPLv3, provided that all Target Code was generated by Eligible Compilation Processes. You may then convey such a combination under terms of your choice, consistent with the licensing of the Independent Modules." http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-3.1-faq.html http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-3.1-faq.html
tzm 16y ago
From my understanding, only the code that interacts with the Wordpress method calls would be subject to GPL. You can abstract out the code that is not dependent upon Wordpress and avoid GPL overall. An example of this is using RESTful APIs in a cloud environment, where your logic runs on an entirely different server. Another example is to imagine a plugin that integrates Microsoft Outlook with Wordpress. Would Outlook then be subject to GPL? No. But, the code that sits between Wordpress and Outlook probably would be.
- callmeed 16y ago
  Doesn't every theme call WordPress methods in order to get posts, use widgets, etc?
  - tzm 16y ago
    Themes, most likely; Apps, not likely. I think confusion occurs when themes become web apps with their own internal codebase outside of Wordpress as a blog platform. The crux of this issue seems to be a philosophical debate.
    - sigzero 16y ago
      Yes but. I personally think it sucks that you would force a "theme" maker to use a specific license. However, if Wordpress says they have to be GPL and you know they have to be GPL, then just release it as GPL because that is the right thing to do.
    - slantyyz 16y ago
      But wait. The theme documentation is public, and as far as I know, you don't have to agree to any license to read it. IN THEORY, you could write a simple theme without even having Wordpress (albeit totally impractical). So if some mad scientist PHP programmer wrote a theme based totally on the documentation freely available on the website without ever installing Wordpress or looking at the Wordpress source, would that theme be subject to the GPL?
      - 16y ago
thomasreggi 16y ago
You cant fight against open source. The masses will always side with open source. But I can't blame Chris Pearson for not wanting to mess with his cash flow. Chris needs to really start thinking Legacy > Currency.
babyboy808 16y ago
Matt, much much respect for acting like a true gentleman and staying calm, you showed Chris what he is really like by letting him make a fool of himself!
moge 16y ago
I gotta say, I was in the audience for this and it was stunning to hear. If you have not listened to the full audio it is well worth the listen. Huge props to Andrew for doing awesome moderation. This whole thing went down because his booked guest canceled so Andrew moderated this very heated discussion on the fly.
dantheman 16y ago
Wow, the amount of ignorance displayed here is significant. It's painful just listening to it, and the blatant double think -- I'm protecting my rights by disregarding your rights...
- dantheman 16y ago
  He seems to not understand the difference between lgpl and the gpl.
  - rick888 16y ago
    "He seems to not understand the difference between lgpl and the gpl." If calling a function from a GPL project or having css/html that interact with a GPL project means that your project needs to also be open sourced, this should be a wakeup call to all businesses to not get anywhere near the license.
    - icey 16y ago
      WordPress' position on what parts must be GPLed is quite clear, and explicitly excludes CSS and media. The PHP portions of the themes are the parts they argue must be GPLed.
      - rick888 16y ago
        "WordPress' position on what parts must be GPLed is quite clear, and explicitly excludes CSS and media. The PHP portions of the themes are the parts they argue must be GPLed." If the portions he used only contain function calls, I wouldn't consider it derivative work.
        icey 16y ago
        The Southern Freedom Law Network does consider that derivative: http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ (I linked this in my other reply to you as well. Sorry for the repetition, but I think it was worth mentioning in both places.)
skitzzo 16y ago
Guys, it's important for you to not frame your opinion solely on this interview. Take a look at Matt's tweets prior to this as well as his comments elsewhere. He's far from a gentleman or patient.
- babyboy808 16y ago
  links please
  - skitzzo 16y ago
    Sure, I've got several... http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18536188489 http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18536188489 http://www.flickr.com/photos/mg315/4792383313/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mg315/4792383313/ (Matt claiming Chris verbally abused Jane Wells) http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18529673700 http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18529673700 (Matt calling Chris a "non-coder" and impugning the Thesis theme) http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18533505517 http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18533505517 (Matt calling Thesis "scammy") http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18535500457 http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18535500457 (Matt blatantly patronizing Chris) And in the interview, when Chris brings up the issue of Matt being more responsible with his actions, Matt deftly dodges the questions. As I said before, while I think Chris came off a bit wound up, it's understandable given the context of the accusations that had been leveled by Matt prior to this interview.
    - jholloway 16y ago
      Totally agree here. All the comments on this post are lauding Matt for being "calm and collected," but it's still possible to be a jackass while sounding calm and collected. Chris got loud and fired up in the interview because he was defending something he believes in. Nothing wrong with that at all.
- pavs 16y ago
  I looked at his tweet, what are you referring to?
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
slantyyz 16y ago
From what I've seen of the portion of the GPL in question, the definition of "derivative work" is subject to interpretation, in my mind. Something for the lawyers to figure out. My 2 cents: Myself, I'm not convinced that a theme is a derivative work. Isn't the API documentation public? Is it not -theoretically- (although impractical) possible to create a theme for Wordpress without having Wordpress itself? (Having said that, it would also be possible to write a non-GPL blogging engine that uses the same API without seeing the Wordpress code) Also, since the theme isn't distributed with Wordpress, I personally think it's harder to argue that it's a derivative piece of work, since none of the original Wordpress code is altered. A better source of information from a legal perspective is the guy at perpetualbeta.com, who delved into this a few months ago with a couple of posts: http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/11/why-the-gpl-does-not-apply-to-premium-wordpress-themes/ http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/11/why-the-gpl-does-no... http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivative-work-debate-doesnt-matter-for-wordpress-themes/ http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivati... From what I understand, he -is- a lawyer, and he has done intellectual property work, so his opinion, at least on the surface, would seem to have some weight. His position that "fair use" moots the GPL argument is quite interesting.
pavs 16y ago
Themes are GPL too: (Interesting read) http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/
- tzs 16y ago
  That was not very convincing. Does program X calling functions from program Y make X a derivative work of Y? The answer, according to copyright law and numerous court cases is no. Given just a list of Wordpress functions, but no access to the Wordpress source code, can you write a theme? The answer appears to be yes from what I can see. Such a theme cannot be a derivative work of Wordpress. Yes, when someone uses the theme, there is a derivative work in memory. That derivative work is created by the person who is running Wordpress, not by the theme author. And yes, the theme author intended that users would create that derivative work. So? There's nothing illegal about that. It's legal, according to the license, for the user to make and run derivative works, and therefore it is legal for theme authors to provide them things that aid them in doing so (as long as those things, standing alone, are not derivative works).
malloreon 16y ago
I'm listening to this while posting this question, but if Matt is correct, does that mean Thesis and therefore all wordpress themes must be available for free?
- skitzzo 16y ago
  No, even if Matt is correct people can still charge for themes. GPL themes are able to be shared and redistributed however the end user sees fit. That's the big difference. I can sell GPL themes myself for half price & they have no recourse. People can give GPL themes away for free and the developers have no recourse. That's what the debate is about, whether themes inherit the GPL or not. No one (that I know of) is arguing the GPL doesn't apply at all. What people, such as myself are arguing is that the GPL doesn't automatically apply to wOrdPRESS themes.
  - malloreon 16y ago
    Let me see if I follow you. If Matt is correct, Chris can still charge for themes, but isn't required to make it available for free. If you purchase Chris' theme, and sell it to me for $10, if Matt is correct, Chris has no claim against you, but if Chris is correct, he does. Is all that right?
    - mdolon 16y ago
      Almost - the GPL wouldn't apply to the CSS, JS or HTML of his themes, nor would the GPL nullify trademark and copyright. Still doesn't mean that his claim would hold up in court but it probably wouldn't be completely hopeless either.
      - BobbyH 16y ago
        In addition, if I purchased the Thesis theme, although the GPL would give me the right to redistribute it, I would not be able to market my redistributed theme as "Thesis", presuming that Chris has trademarked that mark. So if I tried to redistribute the theme as "Thesis", Chris could (1) sue me for trademark infringement. He could also (2) file a DMCA claim against me (or sue me for violating his copyright), if my product included his copyrighted CSS/JS/images/etc. These remaining trademark and copyright protections are why Matt asserts that applying the GPL license to the Thesis theme would not hurt Chris' business.
STHayden 16y ago
Matt Mullenweg is, in general, the nicest person in the world and if you can actually find a point of contention with him then you are doing something wrong.
cgomez 16y ago
"However, I think any astute economic analysis of economic systems of the way businesses and economies actually work would very quickly notice that a GPL does some very inorganic things to what are otherwise organic systems. So, from a systemic standpoint, on a systemic level, I disagree with the way the GPL perpetuates economies." What on earth does that even mean? Also, he's one of the top three most important people by his own admission. Not any of the people who actually write the software that allows him to have a business.
smallegan 16y ago
They talk about CSS, JS and Images being excluded from the Wordpress GPL. Isn't this 99% of what most themes are made of? What Chris has is not a theme but more of a dynamic theme generator. What he should do is make Thesis additionally compatible with another CMS/Blogging tool so that the claims about Thesis delivering nothing but a blank page without Wordpress will no longer be true. I appreciate the work of the open source community and donate to projects that I use most often but I also fully support Chris in being able to make a choice as to what license he wants to apply to his software.
- pavs 16y ago
  Of course he has the choice to put whatever license he wants, but not when he is using wordpress. If he is using wordpress he has to abide by wordpress license the same way people would abide by whatever license he put on Thesis, if it wasn't using wordpress.
joshkaufman 16y ago
I've been spending a lot of time today wondering why Matt cares so much about what license Chris uses - it seems like no real harm is being done to either party here, but both parties are digging in their heels so strongly I find it hard to believe it's purely a philosophical difference. I just had a thought, and I'd like to sanity check it. I don't know Matt or Chris, but I use both Wordpress and Thesis every day, so consider this 100% speculation based on my experience: 1. I use Thesis to manage almost all of my Wordpress sites because it makes my work significantly easier - Thesis extends WP in many useful ways that aren't built into WP core. I'm capable of doing it all myself in the code, but it's much easier to handle it in Thesis, which I think is a major reason why it's so popular. 2. If Thesis adopted the GPL, that means the code is open to be distributed and reapplied by anyone for free. That means Thesis features could legally be added to WP Core without paying Chris royalties. In Matt's eyes, that would be great - it would make WP better by incorporating many new features that users have demonstrated they like/want/need. (I'm pretty sure some former WP plugins have been added to core over time in this way.) 3. If Thesis' features are incorporated into WP Core, Chris' very profitable business evaporates almost immediately - the value is in the added functionality, not the stylesheet, so there'd be no reason for anyone to purchase Thesis. That means if Thesis is forced to adopt the GPL, Pearson stands to lose big time. 4. If Thesis' commercial license is legal (which the post at http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivative-work-debate-doesnt-matter-for-wordpress-themes/ http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivati... makes a strong case for, depending on the definition of "derivative work" when it comes to software), any IP from Thesis incorporated into WP Core without permission or royalties would violate Chris' rights and potentially generate a valid IP infringement lawsuit. 5. Based on the tone of the conversation so far, I don't think Chris would ever give Matt (or anyone else) permission to use IP from Thesis in WP Core without a massive royalty payment. 6. If Matt wants to have the freedom to incorporate Thesis features into WP Core, but doesn't want to pay Chris royalties, he'd have a vested interest in publicly pressuring Chris into adopting the GPL, which is what Matt appears to be doing. Chris finds that offensive, so he's telling Matt to fuck off and sue him if he really wants to push the issue. To Chris, a lawsuit (which will be easier to defend because his business partner, Brian Clark, is an attorney) is a small price to pay to prevent losing millions in revenue, and he believes Matt will lose in the end. Again, total speculation, but this is the only reason I can think of right now they'd go after each other so strongly. Thoughts?
jseifer 16y ago
Some choice quotes from Chris Pearson in this interview: "This can't be understated or just glossed over as if it's not true. My position at the market is pretty much at the top. I'm the most visible person in this space so everyone's gunning for me. Everyone wants a piece." "There's no resolving this. Either you sue me or you don't. Or you continue to talk, or you don't." "I've been arguably one of the top 3 most important figures in the history wordpress." Regarding GPL enforcement: "When I was in college in Georgia it was apparently illegal to get a blow job. But that's one of those laws that's never enforced. So that brings up a valid question. What kind of law is it if it's unenforceable?" "At this time I feel like my method of operation is exactly congruent with my feelings about everything." "I don't have time for rhetoric, I have time for action." "There's no incentive that incentivises me to do anything. All of my decisions come from within." Also, he calls the GPL a flimsy and unenforceable license. I agree with everyone calling Matt gracious and patient. My respect for Matt shot up after listening to this.
- unavailable 16y ago
  Zuckerberg's theft robs Pearson of sleep.
jscore 16y ago
Haven't seen the interview but I'll give my $0.02 here. I use WordPress and just started using Thesis, I think it's a well designed product, albeit a bit simple, but does that it supposed to do really well. It's a nice theme, and very easy to configure either from the WP UI or via the filters/actions. It definitely extends WordPress nicely. It's by far my favorite theme and I plan on using it on my projects (and I must've tried a million themes). Now, if Thesis becomes open source, you can forget about quality, premium themes. Without monetary incentive, people won't rise up to create a good theme, and believe me, I checked WP themes, and most them are just crap. Second, what's the fuss? Thesis is part of the WP eco-system, and its a mutual relationship. The more Thesis grows, the more WP grows. I'm sure he has his moral views, etc, but if someone wants to create a premium product (not using WP's code) and charge for it, let them do it.
- pavs 16y ago
  I hope thesis is not the only commercial theme you ever used. Themeforest, one of the premium wordpress theme market, has ~745 high quality themes with some publishers making 6 figures and all of those themes are GPL (to the best of my knowledge), I think this is also true for WooThemes. The argument that making it GPL will break business is a very weak one. There is nothing, absolutely zero barrier, for someone to copy Thesis and sell it under another name, technically speaking.
  - slantyyz 16y ago
    In all fairness, WooThemes was not GPL from the get go. They went GPL a little later, on their own. I think their blog post announcing that said that they planned to go GPL when they felt like it was good for them to do so.
jeb 16y ago
Chris Pearson generally is quite the ass. Try submitting any comment that in any way mildly suggests he might be wrong to his blog - it gets deleted immediately.
stoney 16y ago
I don't understand why just because something requires Wordpress to work it is a derivative work? Surely anything designed to work on any platform would be a derivative work by that argument? The GPL talks about containing the original Program, not requiring it. Looking at the quote below from the Software Freedom Law Center, if you replace "PHP" with "VBA" and "Wordpress" with "Excel" it would imply that all Excel macros are derivative works of Excel and so only Microsoft can distribute them. The following is taken from http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/, bits in [] are my addition: The PHP[VBA] elements, taken together, are clearly derivative of WordPress[Excel] code. The template[macro] is loaded via the include()[whatever] function. Its contents are combined with the WordPress[Excel] code in memory to be processed by PHP[VBA] along with (and completely indistinguishable from) the rest of WordPress[Excel]. The PHP[VBA] code consists largely of calls to WordPress[Excel] functions and sparse, minimal logic to control which WordPress[Excel] functions are accessed and how many times they will be called. They are derivative of WordPress[Excel] because every part of them is determined by the content of the WordPress[Excel] functions they call. As works of authorship, they are designed only to be combined with WordPress[Excel] into a larger work.
- Otto42 16y ago
  In the case of Excel macros, Microsoft have provided a public API within which to create those programs. This is not the case for WordPress themes. Themes use the internal structures of WordPress to do their work, not the public APIs that WordPress provides.
  - stoney 16y ago
    So what defines a public API? The Wordpress internals are all public so why doesn't that count as an API?
rick888 16y ago
If it's just function calls to the Wordpress code, I still can't see how it can be considered derivative. He also does not distribute Wordpress along with his theme. It's the user's job to put them together. This to me means it's separate and not derivative. This just exemplifies the viral nature of the GPL and why businesses need to seriously consider using any code that involves the license. This entire situation is a little hypocritical to me (for HN). Whenever there is an article about the piratebay (or piracy for that matter), there is usually a barrage of comments about how piracy is okay, it helps the content provider (because it's getting more usage), and it doesn't hurt or harm the original author. Now that it involves the GPL (a person defending their copyright/license ownership..just like the record and movie industries), the majority here are singing a different tune. This just means that it has nothing to do with what's right and wrong, but political ideology.
tbrooks 16y ago
I'm like Chris. I get really emotional and passionate when I argue. ...and that's when I end up sticking my foot in my mouth. A mentor sat me down and told me, "Look, don't let your emotions drive your logic. Choose when to be mad. So that when you're mad, people will see you're making a point by choosing to be mad." Matt is a PR agency dream. He calm, cool, and collected. He is a frickin pro in this exchange and it's hard to side with Chris when he sounds like a buffoon.
jholloway 16y ago
I guess I'm the only one who saw Matt as the obnoxious one in that conversation? He kept putting words in Chris' mouth, playing slap-fight, and making snarky statements like, "Oh, I'll be sure to consult you in the future before I say anything." And the worst was when he said that "literally the whole legal community except for one guy in Florida" agrees with his interpretation of the GPL. That's just ignorant and irresponsible. About as bad as citing three clearly biased pro-GPL organizations as your sources for why you're right. Look, I agree that Chris probably overstated his position in the WP community. It probably wasn't the smartest thing to call himself one of the top 3 most influential people in WP. However, I feel that his reasons for not wanting to go GPL are legitimate and for some reason Matt can't seem to understand that Chris is making a stand on principle here, not just revenue. I also understand his frustration. He's getting pounded left and right, sometimes with vicious personal attacks, mainly based on Matt's specious arguments. He's fed up, he's tired of the talk, and he wants Matt/WP to take action if they really care that much about it. As far as I am concerned, if they really believe Chris is in violation of the license, WP can and should take action to try to shut down Chris if he doesn't comply, including legal action. They are fully within their rights to do that. But please, don't just sit back and spew half-truths and try to tear down the guy's reputation. As the old saying goes, if you're going to talk the talk, you should walk the walk.
- eavc 16y ago
  Nobody likes going to court. It's expensive and contentious. Matt made an impressive effort to appeal to law, ethics, the golden rule, economics, majority opinion, and more, and for the vast majority of the interview, he did it politely. Chris essentially said, "There's no way I'm going to change my mind no matter what because it's my opinion. Why don't you sue me?" Matt cited IP lawyers and organizations. He also cited that large corporations have wanted to challenge but decided not to. I found it to be a lopsided argument in the most complete way possible.
  - jholloway 16y ago
    I think the point here is that Chris is one of the first people to stand up and challenge the assertion made by Matt that the GPL automatically applies to all WP themes and plugins. Everyone has just sat there and accepted it up to now. Everyone on HN and elsewhere that is just telling Chris, "Oh, just follow the rules, why are you fighting this?" — why should he follow rules that may as well be arbitrary? Even if this does go to court and it turns out that Chris is indeed in violation of the GPL, I still applaud him for having the courage to stick to what he believes in. In my opinion, the GPL needs to be tested either way. I think at this point we can all speculate, but no one really knows what will or won't stand up in front of a judge and jury.
icey 16y ago
This is pretty interesting, someone did a detailed analysis of GPLed code found inside of Thesis: http://drewblas.com/2010/07/15/an-analysis-of-gpled-code-in-thesis/ http://drewblas.com/2010/07/15/an-analysis-of-gpled-code-in-...

64 points by jaxc 16y ago

sigzero 16y ago

I have not checked. Do other CMS projects force the GPL license on themes?

pavs 16y ago
Yup. See Also: Drupal.
- michaeltwofish 16y ago
  Note that Drupal specifically excludes Javascript, images, Flash, from being GPL'd. http://drupal.org/licensing/faq#q7 http://drupal.org/licensing/faq#q7
  - maepaulino 16y ago
    That's what Matt's saying too. Only the PHP files in the theme are GPL.

johnnytee 16y ago

What's up with that esoteric rant about systems by Chris? What the hell is that guy talking about? Sounds like Sarah Palin.

slantyyz 16y ago
Maybe he gets "word salad" when he's wound up. And boy did he sound wound up.
- pavs 16y ago
  Yeah, he was all over the place. Some people just can't talk on pressure situation. Quite a few time I had to go back and listen to what he was saying and still couldn't make sense. He just puts up a bunch of words together and it makes absolutely no sense. Sarah Palin is an apt comparison.

sushi 16y ago

Chris misinterprets GPL and fails to give valid argument. He even comes off as Sarah Palin of the WordPress community.

elbrodeur 16y ago

Chris Pearson's defense is thin at best: Switching to GPL wouldn't affect my business at all! It just rubs me the wrong way! Additionally, he comes across as a real jerk. EDIT: After listening to the whole thing I am appalled by Chris Pearson's lack of understanding about licensing and his offensive attitude. Matt Mullenweg deserves an award for being so gracious and patient.

edash 16y ago
It's unfortunate Chris showed himself this way. He came across as a nice guy and impressive business owner in his previous Mixergy interview. He is clearly emotionally invested in this debate and would be better off letting someone else represent his side in the future (PR person, lawyer, parrot etc).
rick888 16y ago
"Chris Pearson's defense is thin at best: Switching to GPL wouldn't affect my business at all! It just rubs me the wrong way!" It will ruin his business. Anyone that buys the thesis theme will be able to share it for free (and he will have no legal recourse). "Additionally, he comes across as a real jerk." so does Richard Stallman. I think he is sick of the GPL zealots hounding him. I would be too. "Matt Mullenweg deserves an award for being so gracious and patient." Matt Mullenweg wants all plugins and themes to be open sourced because he will be able to give them out for free with the WP platform (which will result in more users and more customers for the services that he charges for).
- rick888 16y ago
  open source zealots are in full force tonight
- Otto42 16y ago
  Anybody who buys it now can share it for free. You can get online, right now, and find a copy of thesis and download it without paying a dime. People who are doing this sort of thing aren't going to be stopped by text in a license.
16y ago

pavs 16y ago

Trying my best not to sound rude, but Chris Pearson sounds extremely obnoxious. His analogies are all over the place and very defensive; most likely because he realizes that he is on the wrong end of the debate. The license explicitly says it has to be GPL. End of discussion. He is making up his own rules!

babyboy808 16y ago
I honestly thought I was the only thinking this!
- pavs 16y ago
  Confirmed this guy is obnoxious: http://i.imgur.com/wffx2.png http://i.imgur.com/wffx2.png My respect for Matt just jumped ten-fold for being so calm with this guy and I am not even a fan-boy.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - freerobby 16y ago
    Agreed.
    - wingnutart 16y ago
      Chris was a jerk this entire interview. Over and over again he was ranting and shouting Matt down. Matt was superb throughout; calm, patient, and prepared. He had one blurt-out, while Pearson frantically dug his own grave. Totally agreed.
  - Concours 16y ago
    fully agree, I was impress from Matt, seems to be an extremely smart and calm Guy.
slantyyz 16y ago
Obnoxious or not, I think the point of contention is whether a theme can considered a derivative work or not. I think you can easily find lawyers who would have no trouble arguing either side of the case.

jasonlbaptiste 16y ago

I'm trying to see the practical reasons of why NOT to use the GPL in this specific case. If people are going to steal thesis they will steal it. GPL doesn't change that. Here's what I want yo know: how many people has chris asked to stop illegally distributing thesis? This is interesting to me as I'm releasing something very cool re: wordpress themes next week.

rick888 16y ago
"If people are going to steal thesis they will steal it. GPL doesn't change that." No, it doesn't. But it doesn't give you any right to stop people from stealing it. Someone could also come out with the thesis 2 theme, not change anything about it, and start selling it. Chris would have no recourse.
- icey 16y ago
  It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it.
  - rick888 16y ago
    "It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it." Not really. Thesis shouldn't be considered a derivative work. If it is, than any application that runs under Linux should also be considered a derivative work (you need Linux to run the app..right?). Should any app compiled using GCC be considered derivative work?
    - winthrowe 16y ago
      There's a specific exemption in the license for this though: "The permission you need—to convey the object code from these GCC libraries under your own project's license—is primarily contained in section 2: You have permission to propagate a work of Target Code formed by combining the Runtime Library with Independent Modules, even if such propagation would otherwise violate the terms of GPLv3, provided that all Target Code was generated by Eligible Compilation Processes. You may then convey such a combination under terms of your choice, consistent with the licensing of the Independent Modules." http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-3.1-faq.html http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-3.1-faq.html

tzm 16y ago

From my understanding, only the code that interacts with the Wordpress method calls would be subject to GPL. You can abstract out the code that is not dependent upon Wordpress and avoid GPL overall. An example of this is using RESTful APIs in a cloud environment, where your logic runs on an entirely different server. Another example is to imagine a plugin that integrates Microsoft Outlook with Wordpress. Would Outlook then be subject to GPL? No. But, the code that sits between Wordpress and Outlook probably would be.

callmeed 16y ago
Doesn't every theme call WordPress methods in order to get posts, use widgets, etc?
- tzm 16y ago
  Themes, most likely; Apps, not likely. I think confusion occurs when themes become web apps with their own internal codebase outside of Wordpress as a blog platform. The crux of this issue seems to be a philosophical debate.
  - sigzero 16y ago
    Yes but. I personally think it sucks that you would force a "theme" maker to use a specific license. However, if Wordpress says they have to be GPL and you know they have to be GPL, then just release it as GPL because that is the right thing to do.
  - slantyyz 16y ago
    But wait. The theme documentation is public, and as far as I know, you don't have to agree to any license to read it. IN THEORY, you could write a simple theme without even having Wordpress (albeit totally impractical). So if some mad scientist PHP programmer wrote a theme based totally on the documentation freely available on the website without ever installing Wordpress or looking at the Wordpress source, would that theme be subject to the GPL?
    - 16y ago

thomasreggi 16y ago

You cant fight against open source. The masses will always side with open source. But I can't blame Chris Pearson for not wanting to mess with his cash flow. Chris needs to really start thinking Legacy > Currency.

babyboy808 16y ago

Matt, much much respect for acting like a true gentleman and staying calm, you showed Chris what he is really like by letting him make a fool of himself!

moge 16y ago

I gotta say, I was in the audience for this and it was stunning to hear. If you have not listened to the full audio it is well worth the listen. Huge props to Andrew for doing awesome moderation. This whole thing went down because his booked guest canceled so Andrew moderated this very heated discussion on the fly.

dantheman 16y ago

Wow, the amount of ignorance displayed here is significant. It's painful just listening to it, and the blatant double think -- I'm protecting my rights by disregarding your rights...

dantheman 16y ago
He seems to not understand the difference between lgpl and the gpl.
- rick888 16y ago
  "He seems to not understand the difference between lgpl and the gpl." If calling a function from a GPL project or having css/html that interact with a GPL project means that your project needs to also be open sourced, this should be a wakeup call to all businesses to not get anywhere near the license.
  - icey 16y ago
    WordPress' position on what parts must be GPLed is quite clear, and explicitly excludes CSS and media. The PHP portions of the themes are the parts they argue must be GPLed.
    - rick888 16y ago
      "WordPress' position on what parts must be GPLed is quite clear, and explicitly excludes CSS and media. The PHP portions of the themes are the parts they argue must be GPLed." If the portions he used only contain function calls, I wouldn't consider it derivative work.
      - icey 16y ago
        The Southern Freedom Law Network does consider that derivative: http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ (I linked this in my other reply to you as well. Sorry for the repetition, but I think it was worth mentioning in both places.)

skitzzo 16y ago

Guys, it's important for you to not frame your opinion solely on this interview. Take a look at Matt's tweets prior to this as well as his comments elsewhere. He's far from a gentleman or patient.

babyboy808 16y ago
links please
- skitzzo 16y ago
  Sure, I've got several... http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18536188489 http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18536188489 http://www.flickr.com/photos/mg315/4792383313/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mg315/4792383313/ (Matt claiming Chris verbally abused Jane Wells) http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18529673700 http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18529673700 (Matt calling Chris a "non-coder" and impugning the Thesis theme) http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18533505517 http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18533505517 (Matt calling Thesis "scammy") http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18535500457 http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18535500457 (Matt blatantly patronizing Chris) And in the interview, when Chris brings up the issue of Matt being more responsible with his actions, Matt deftly dodges the questions. As I said before, while I think Chris came off a bit wound up, it's understandable given the context of the accusations that had been leveled by Matt prior to this interview.
  - jholloway 16y ago
    Totally agree here. All the comments on this post are lauding Matt for being "calm and collected," but it's still possible to be a jackass while sounding calm and collected. Chris got loud and fired up in the interview because he was defending something he believes in. Nothing wrong with that at all.
pavs 16y ago
I looked at his tweet, what are you referring to?

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

slantyyz 16y ago

From what I've seen of the portion of the GPL in question, the definition of "derivative work" is subject to interpretation, in my mind. Something for the lawyers to figure out. My 2 cents: Myself, I'm not convinced that a theme is a derivative work. Isn't the API documentation public? Is it not -theoretically- (although impractical) possible to create a theme for Wordpress without having Wordpress itself? (Having said that, it would also be possible to write a non-GPL blogging engine that uses the same API without seeing the Wordpress code) Also, since the theme isn't distributed with Wordpress, I personally think it's harder to argue that it's a derivative piece of work, since none of the original Wordpress code is altered. A better source of information from a legal perspective is the guy at perpetualbeta.com, who delved into this a few months ago with a couple of posts: http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/11/why-the-gpl-does-not-apply-to-premium-wordpress-themes/ http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/11/why-the-gpl-does-no... http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivative-work-debate-doesnt-matter-for-wordpress-themes/ http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivati... From what I understand, he -is- a lawyer, and he has done intellectual property work, so his opinion, at least on the surface, would seem to have some weight. His position that "fair use" moots the GPL argument is quite interesting.

pavs 16y ago

Themes are GPL too: (Interesting read) http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/

tzs 16y ago
That was not very convincing. Does program X calling functions from program Y make X a derivative work of Y? The answer, according to copyright law and numerous court cases is no. Given just a list of Wordpress functions, but no access to the Wordpress source code, can you write a theme? The answer appears to be yes from what I can see. Such a theme cannot be a derivative work of Wordpress. Yes, when someone uses the theme, there is a derivative work in memory. That derivative work is created by the person who is running Wordpress, not by the theme author. And yes, the theme author intended that users would create that derivative work. So? There's nothing illegal about that. It's legal, according to the license, for the user to make and run derivative works, and therefore it is legal for theme authors to provide them things that aid them in doing so (as long as those things, standing alone, are not derivative works).

malloreon 16y ago

I'm listening to this while posting this question, but if Matt is correct, does that mean Thesis and therefore all wordpress themes must be available for free?

skitzzo 16y ago
No, even if Matt is correct people can still charge for themes. GPL themes are able to be shared and redistributed however the end user sees fit. That's the big difference. I can sell GPL themes myself for half price & they have no recourse. People can give GPL themes away for free and the developers have no recourse. That's what the debate is about, whether themes inherit the GPL or not. No one (that I know of) is arguing the GPL doesn't apply at all. What people, such as myself are arguing is that the GPL doesn't automatically apply to wOrdPRESS themes.
- malloreon 16y ago
  Let me see if I follow you. If Matt is correct, Chris can still charge for themes, but isn't required to make it available for free. If you purchase Chris' theme, and sell it to me for $10, if Matt is correct, Chris has no claim against you, but if Chris is correct, he does. Is all that right?
  - mdolon 16y ago
    Almost - the GPL wouldn't apply to the CSS, JS or HTML of his themes, nor would the GPL nullify trademark and copyright. Still doesn't mean that his claim would hold up in court but it probably wouldn't be completely hopeless either.
    - BobbyH 16y ago
      In addition, if I purchased the Thesis theme, although the GPL would give me the right to redistribute it, I would not be able to market my redistributed theme as "Thesis", presuming that Chris has trademarked that mark. So if I tried to redistribute the theme as "Thesis", Chris could (1) sue me for trademark infringement. He could also (2) file a DMCA claim against me (or sue me for violating his copyright), if my product included his copyrighted CSS/JS/images/etc. These remaining trademark and copyright protections are why Matt asserts that applying the GPL license to the Thesis theme would not hurt Chris' business.

STHayden 16y ago

Matt Mullenweg is, in general, the nicest person in the world and if you can actually find a point of contention with him then you are doing something wrong.

cgomez 16y ago

"However, I think any astute economic analysis of economic systems of the way businesses and economies actually work would very quickly notice that a GPL does some very inorganic things to what are otherwise organic systems. So, from a systemic standpoint, on a systemic level, I disagree with the way the GPL perpetuates economies." What on earth does that even mean? Also, he's one of the top three most important people by his own admission. Not any of the people who actually write the software that allows him to have a business.

smallegan 16y ago

They talk about CSS, JS and Images being excluded from the Wordpress GPL. Isn't this 99% of what most themes are made of? What Chris has is not a theme but more of a dynamic theme generator. What he should do is make Thesis additionally compatible with another CMS/Blogging tool so that the claims about Thesis delivering nothing but a blank page without Wordpress will no longer be true. I appreciate the work of the open source community and donate to projects that I use most often but I also fully support Chris in being able to make a choice as to what license he wants to apply to his software.

pavs 16y ago
Of course he has the choice to put whatever license he wants, but not when he is using wordpress. If he is using wordpress he has to abide by wordpress license the same way people would abide by whatever license he put on Thesis, if it wasn't using wordpress.

joshkaufman 16y ago

I've been spending a lot of time today wondering why Matt cares so much about what license Chris uses - it seems like no real harm is being done to either party here, but both parties are digging in their heels so strongly I find it hard to believe it's purely a philosophical difference. I just had a thought, and I'd like to sanity check it. I don't know Matt or Chris, but I use both Wordpress and Thesis every day, so consider this 100% speculation based on my experience: 1. I use Thesis to manage almost all of my Wordpress sites because it makes my work significantly easier - Thesis extends WP in many useful ways that aren't built into WP core. I'm capable of doing it all myself in the code, but it's much easier to handle it in Thesis, which I think is a major reason why it's so popular. 2. If Thesis adopted the GPL, that means the code is open to be distributed and reapplied by anyone for free. That means Thesis features could legally be added to WP Core without paying Chris royalties. In Matt's eyes, that would be great - it would make WP better by incorporating many new features that users have demonstrated they like/want/need. (I'm pretty sure some former WP plugins have been added to core over time in this way.) 3. If Thesis' features are incorporated into WP Core, Chris' very profitable business evaporates almost immediately - the value is in the added functionality, not the stylesheet, so there'd be no reason for anyone to purchase Thesis. That means if Thesis is forced to adopt the GPL, Pearson stands to lose big time. 4. If Thesis' commercial license is legal (which the post at http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivative-work-debate-doesnt-matter-for-wordpress-themes/ http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivati... makes a strong case for, depending on the definition of "derivative work" when it comes to software), any IP from Thesis incorporated into WP Core without permission or royalties would violate Chris' rights and potentially generate a valid IP infringement lawsuit. 5. Based on the tone of the conversation so far, I don't think Chris would ever give Matt (or anyone else) permission to use IP from Thesis in WP Core without a massive royalty payment. 6. If Matt wants to have the freedom to incorporate Thesis features into WP Core, but doesn't want to pay Chris royalties, he'd have a vested interest in publicly pressuring Chris into adopting the GPL, which is what Matt appears to be doing. Chris finds that offensive, so he's telling Matt to fuck off and sue him if he really wants to push the issue. To Chris, a lawsuit (which will be easier to defend because his business partner, Brian Clark, is an attorney) is a small price to pay to prevent losing millions in revenue, and he believes Matt will lose in the end. Again, total speculation, but this is the only reason I can think of right now they'd go after each other so strongly. Thoughts?

jseifer 16y ago

Some choice quotes from Chris Pearson in this interview: "This can't be understated or just glossed over as if it's not true. My position at the market is pretty much at the top. I'm the most visible person in this space so everyone's gunning for me. Everyone wants a piece." "There's no resolving this. Either you sue me or you don't. Or you continue to talk, or you don't." "I've been arguably one of the top 3 most important figures in the history wordpress." Regarding GPL enforcement: "When I was in college in Georgia it was apparently illegal to get a blow job. But that's one of those laws that's never enforced. So that brings up a valid question. What kind of law is it if it's unenforceable?" "At this time I feel like my method of operation is exactly congruent with my feelings about everything." "I don't have time for rhetoric, I have time for action." "There's no incentive that incentivises me to do anything. All of my decisions come from within." Also, he calls the GPL a flimsy and unenforceable license. I agree with everyone calling Matt gracious and patient. My respect for Matt shot up after listening to this.

unavailable 16y ago
Zuckerberg's theft robs Pearson of sleep.

jscore 16y ago

Haven't seen the interview but I'll give my $0.02 here. I use WordPress and just started using Thesis, I think it's a well designed product, albeit a bit simple, but does that it supposed to do really well. It's a nice theme, and very easy to configure either from the WP UI or via the filters/actions. It definitely extends WordPress nicely. It's by far my favorite theme and I plan on using it on my projects (and I must've tried a million themes). Now, if Thesis becomes open source, you can forget about quality, premium themes. Without monetary incentive, people won't rise up to create a good theme, and believe me, I checked WP themes, and most them are just crap. Second, what's the fuss? Thesis is part of the WP eco-system, and its a mutual relationship. The more Thesis grows, the more WP grows. I'm sure he has his moral views, etc, but if someone wants to create a premium product (not using WP's code) and charge for it, let them do it.

pavs 16y ago
I hope thesis is not the only commercial theme you ever used. Themeforest, one of the premium wordpress theme market, has ~745 high quality themes with some publishers making 6 figures and all of those themes are GPL (to the best of my knowledge), I think this is also true for WooThemes. The argument that making it GPL will break business is a very weak one. There is nothing, absolutely zero barrier, for someone to copy Thesis and sell it under another name, technically speaking.
- slantyyz 16y ago
  In all fairness, WooThemes was not GPL from the get go. They went GPL a little later, on their own. I think their blog post announcing that said that they planned to go GPL when they felt like it was good for them to do so.

jeb 16y ago

Chris Pearson generally is quite the ass. Try submitting any comment that in any way mildly suggests he might be wrong to his blog - it gets deleted immediately.

stoney 16y ago

I don't understand why just because something requires Wordpress to work it is a derivative work? Surely anything designed to work on any platform would be a derivative work by that argument? The GPL talks about containing the original Program, not requiring it. Looking at the quote below from the Software Freedom Law Center, if you replace "PHP" with "VBA" and "Wordpress" with "Excel" it would imply that all Excel macros are derivative works of Excel and so only Microsoft can distribute them. The following is taken from http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/, bits in [] are my addition: The PHP[VBA] elements, taken together, are clearly derivative of WordPress[Excel] code. The template[macro] is loaded via the include()[whatever] function. Its contents are combined with the WordPress[Excel] code in memory to be processed by PHP[VBA] along with (and completely indistinguishable from) the rest of WordPress[Excel]. The PHP[VBA] code consists largely of calls to WordPress[Excel] functions and sparse, minimal logic to control which WordPress[Excel] functions are accessed and how many times they will be called. They are derivative of WordPress[Excel] because every part of them is determined by the content of the WordPress[Excel] functions they call. As works of authorship, they are designed only to be combined with WordPress[Excel] into a larger work.

Otto42 16y ago
In the case of Excel macros, Microsoft have provided a public API within which to create those programs. This is not the case for WordPress themes. Themes use the internal structures of WordPress to do their work, not the public APIs that WordPress provides.
- stoney 16y ago
  So what defines a public API? The Wordpress internals are all public so why doesn't that count as an API?

rick888 16y ago

If it's just function calls to the Wordpress code, I still can't see how it can be considered derivative. He also does not distribute Wordpress along with his theme. It's the user's job to put them together. This to me means it's separate and not derivative. This just exemplifies the viral nature of the GPL and why businesses need to seriously consider using any code that involves the license. This entire situation is a little hypocritical to me (for HN). Whenever there is an article about the piratebay (or piracy for that matter), there is usually a barrage of comments about how piracy is okay, it helps the content provider (because it's getting more usage), and it doesn't hurt or harm the original author. Now that it involves the GPL (a person defending their copyright/license ownership..just like the record and movie industries), the majority here are singing a different tune. This just means that it has nothing to do with what's right and wrong, but political ideology.

tbrooks 16y ago

I'm like Chris. I get really emotional and passionate when I argue. ...and that's when I end up sticking my foot in my mouth. A mentor sat me down and told me, "Look, don't let your emotions drive your logic. Choose when to be mad. So that when you're mad, people will see you're making a point by choosing to be mad." Matt is a PR agency dream. He calm, cool, and collected. He is a frickin pro in this exchange and it's hard to side with Chris when he sounds like a buffoon.

jholloway 16y ago

I guess I'm the only one who saw Matt as the obnoxious one in that conversation? He kept putting words in Chris' mouth, playing slap-fight, and making snarky statements like, "Oh, I'll be sure to consult you in the future before I say anything." And the worst was when he said that "literally the whole legal community except for one guy in Florida" agrees with his interpretation of the GPL. That's just ignorant and irresponsible. About as bad as citing three clearly biased pro-GPL organizations as your sources for why you're right. Look, I agree that Chris probably overstated his position in the WP community. It probably wasn't the smartest thing to call himself one of the top 3 most influential people in WP. However, I feel that his reasons for not wanting to go GPL are legitimate and for some reason Matt can't seem to understand that Chris is making a stand on principle here, not just revenue. I also understand his frustration. He's getting pounded left and right, sometimes with vicious personal attacks, mainly based on Matt's specious arguments. He's fed up, he's tired of the talk, and he wants Matt/WP to take action if they really care that much about it. As far as I am concerned, if they really believe Chris is in violation of the license, WP can and should take action to try to shut down Chris if he doesn't comply, including legal action. They are fully within their rights to do that. But please, don't just sit back and spew half-truths and try to tear down the guy's reputation. As the old saying goes, if you're going to talk the talk, you should walk the walk.

eavc 16y ago
Nobody likes going to court. It's expensive and contentious. Matt made an impressive effort to appeal to law, ethics, the golden rule, economics, majority opinion, and more, and for the vast majority of the interview, he did it politely. Chris essentially said, "There's no way I'm going to change my mind no matter what because it's my opinion. Why don't you sue me?" Matt cited IP lawyers and organizations. He also cited that large corporations have wanted to challenge but decided not to. I found it to be a lopsided argument in the most complete way possible.
- jholloway 16y ago
  I think the point here is that Chris is one of the first people to stand up and challenge the assertion made by Matt that the GPL automatically applies to all WP themes and plugins. Everyone has just sat there and accepted it up to now. Everyone on HN and elsewhere that is just telling Chris, "Oh, just follow the rules, why are you fighting this?" — why should he follow rules that may as well be arbitrary? Even if this does go to court and it turns out that Chris is indeed in violation of the GPL, I still applaud him for having the courage to stick to what he believes in. In my opinion, the GPL needs to be tested either way. I think at this point we can all speculate, but no one really knows what will or won't stand up in front of a judge and jury.

icey 16y ago

This is pretty interesting, someone did a detailed analysis of GPLed code found inside of Thesis: http://drewblas.com/2010/07/15/an-analysis-of-gpled-code-in-thesis/ http://drewblas.com/2010/07/15/an-analysis-of-gpled-code-in-...