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"If you’re educated, you’re in command." I'm not college educated, I've made a comfortable living as a coder. It took over ten years of self-teaching in my 20'

"If you’re educated, you’re in command." I'm not college educated, I've made a comfortable living as a coder. It took over ten years of self-teaching in my 20's while working a FT job but I knew this is what I wanted to do. So I agree with the statement but there's more than one way to become educated. Academia is just one way and possibly not the best way.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
This doesn't work so well anymore. There has been an influx of millions of coders. You can do it, but why? It's easier to just go through the college grinder and pay off your loan over the next decade. Plus you might meet a cofounder.
- newforice 9y ago
  It I were starting out today, there's a good chance I'd go the college route too. Back then, it was tougher, I'd been accepted but couldn't afford it without working FT and doing college FT. In retrospect, I'd have gotten to where I wanted to be faster though it wouldn't have been the same journey. ;-)
robteix 9y ago
Coding is a very particular case, though. You can't self-study your way to becoming a lawyer or a doctor. And even in coding, more companies are slowly requiring formal education as a prerequisite for even applying for jobs. We know someone like you can be just as productive as someone from a great school, but that won't matter if you're cut from the selection process.
- newforice 9y ago
  Agree on both points. It's ironic, my pay is the same or less today than it was 5 years ago and it was lower then, than it was during the dot com boom.
  - sulam 9y ago
    I would submit that you are not negotiating when you move jobs, are not moving jobs enough, or are sacrificing comp for other things you value if this is true. It is very normal for people to offer you a small bump over current salary to get you to move. Your goal is to at least double that bump, if not figure out how to get on another rung of the ladder entirely. I say all of this because there has been a significant upward tick over the last 5 years. Roughly speaking new grads are now making the same as what people with 5 years of experience made 5 years ago.
    - newforice 9y ago
      When it comes to money, I would prefer if I could skip negotiating and probably need overall to work on my negotiating skills. I also happily work for less for remote positions so you got me down to a tee on those.
  - stale2002 9y ago
    You sound underpaid. Have you considered going to work for one of the big 5 tech companies? The interview process is intimidating, but many people would likely be able to get through it if they did a couple months of intensive interview prep beforehand. Also, consider moving to the Bay Area, or another major city.
- WalterBright 9y ago
  > You can't self-study your way to becoming a lawyer or a doctor. That's because the law doesn't allow it.
  - agentdrtran 9y ago
    It would be insane if it did.
    - WalterBright 9y ago
      In America, licensing of physicians was often used to drive women, jews, and minorities out of the profession. See "Competition & Monopoly In Medical Care" by Frech, pg. 54 for a detailed discussion.
    - peoplewindow 9y ago
      Why?
      - FLUX-YOU 9y ago
        Oversight and mentorship doesn't exist for entry level self-taught doctors or lawyers. Everyone starting out would be learning the hard lessons the hard way, and for law and medicine, that means jail, injury, and deaths.
        peoplewindow 9y ago
        What makes you think that professions other than law and medicine don't have mentorship or oversight?
sigmar 9y ago
Why do you assume that quote refers to formal education (instead of any form of education that leads to one becoming a software engineer)?
- newforice 9y ago
  It seems like a safe assumption for today but you're right, it's an assumption.
konart 9y ago
Well, that's true, but at the same time not quite. For example in some countries you won't get a job (we are talking about coding here, and by coding I mean software engineer) without diploma. Doesn't matter how good you are. Go get your papers first. You can work remotely ofc. in this case or even try and change country (which is not always simple without diploma too).
princekolt 9y ago
But the simple knowledge of this fact is so scarce that it makes almost no difference. And since most schools don't care about coding (or, where I'm from for example, about anything not related to get the most students to pass the equivalent of SATs), this is not going to change soon. I was so surprised when my father told me that back in the 80s, in a small city in the interior of Brazil, in a public school, he was taught BASIC as part of the school curriculum. Over twenty years later, in a prestigious private high school in the capital city, coding was only mentioned once by a school director when shaming students for only using computers for "foolish tasks", while completely ignoring the fact his school didn't give a single coding class, not even as extra curriculum. Programming should have the same importance status as maths in school, if not more.
- newforice 9y ago
  "Programming should have the same importance status as maths in school, if not more." It amazes me that it isn't the case, I assumed most High Schools if not grade schools were teaching some programming by now.
- scarface74 9y ago
  I went to a small town public school in the late 80s and early 90s and we had an AppleSoft Basic course. I'm amazed that schools don't have that now.
  - kazagistar 9y ago
    Not many people are qualified to teach programming in any way and also willing to work for abysmal school teacher salaries.
- mistersquid 9y ago
  In the US, K-12 jobs teaching are neither prestigious enough nor well-compensated enough to attract/retain people who know how to code, which is different that teaching to code but an educator must know high level concepts to teach effectively. Anyone proficient enough to teach code is either working or consulting in the private sector. I do wish US K-12 teachers were better compensated. EDIT: readability.

sillysaurus3 9y ago

This doesn't work so well anymore. There has been an influx of millions of coders. You can do it, but why? It's easier to just go through the college grinder and pay off your loan over the next decade. Plus you might meet a cofounder.

newforice 9y ago
It I were starting out today, there's a good chance I'd go the college route too. Back then, it was tougher, I'd been accepted but couldn't afford it without working FT and doing college FT. In retrospect, I'd have gotten to where I wanted to be faster though it wouldn't have been the same journey. ;-)

robteix 9y ago

Coding is a very particular case, though. You can't self-study your way to becoming a lawyer or a doctor. And even in coding, more companies are slowly requiring formal education as a prerequisite for even applying for jobs. We know someone like you can be just as productive as someone from a great school, but that won't matter if you're cut from the selection process.

newforice 9y ago
Agree on both points. It's ironic, my pay is the same or less today than it was 5 years ago and it was lower then, than it was during the dot com boom.
- sulam 9y ago
  I would submit that you are not negotiating when you move jobs, are not moving jobs enough, or are sacrificing comp for other things you value if this is true. It is very normal for people to offer you a small bump over current salary to get you to move. Your goal is to at least double that bump, if not figure out how to get on another rung of the ladder entirely. I say all of this because there has been a significant upward tick over the last 5 years. Roughly speaking new grads are now making the same as what people with 5 years of experience made 5 years ago.
  - newforice 9y ago
    When it comes to money, I would prefer if I could skip negotiating and probably need overall to work on my negotiating skills. I also happily work for less for remote positions so you got me down to a tee on those.
- stale2002 9y ago
  You sound underpaid. Have you considered going to work for one of the big 5 tech companies? The interview process is intimidating, but many people would likely be able to get through it if they did a couple months of intensive interview prep beforehand. Also, consider moving to the Bay Area, or another major city.
WalterBright 9y ago
> You can't self-study your way to becoming a lawyer or a doctor. That's because the law doesn't allow it.
- agentdrtran 9y ago
  It would be insane if it did.
  - WalterBright 9y ago
    In America, licensing of physicians was often used to drive women, jews, and minorities out of the profession. See "Competition & Monopoly In Medical Care" by Frech, pg. 54 for a detailed discussion.
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
    Why?
    - FLUX-YOU 9y ago
      Oversight and mentorship doesn't exist for entry level self-taught doctors or lawyers. Everyone starting out would be learning the hard lessons the hard way, and for law and medicine, that means jail, injury, and deaths.
      - peoplewindow 9y ago
        What makes you think that professions other than law and medicine don't have mentorship or oversight?

sigmar 9y ago

Why do you assume that quote refers to formal education (instead of any form of education that leads to one becoming a software engineer)?

newforice 9y ago
It seems like a safe assumption for today but you're right, it's an assumption.

konart 9y ago

Well, that's true, but at the same time not quite. For example in some countries you won't get a job (we are talking about coding here, and by coding I mean software engineer) without diploma. Doesn't matter how good you are. Go get your papers first. You can work remotely ofc. in this case or even try and change country (which is not always simple without diploma too).

princekolt 9y ago

But the simple knowledge of this fact is so scarce that it makes almost no difference. And since most schools don't care about coding (or, where I'm from for example, about anything not related to get the most students to pass the equivalent of SATs), this is not going to change soon. I was so surprised when my father told me that back in the 80s, in a small city in the interior of Brazil, in a public school, he was taught BASIC as part of the school curriculum. Over twenty years later, in a prestigious private high school in the capital city, coding was only mentioned once by a school director when shaming students for only using computers for "foolish tasks", while completely ignoring the fact his school didn't give a single coding class, not even as extra curriculum. Programming should have the same importance status as maths in school, if not more.

newforice 9y ago
"Programming should have the same importance status as maths in school, if not more." It amazes me that it isn't the case, I assumed most High Schools if not grade schools were teaching some programming by now.
scarface74 9y ago
I went to a small town public school in the late 80s and early 90s and we had an AppleSoft Basic course. I'm amazed that schools don't have that now.
- kazagistar 9y ago
  Not many people are qualified to teach programming in any way and also willing to work for abysmal school teacher salaries.
mistersquid 9y ago
In the US, K-12 jobs teaching are neither prestigious enough nor well-compensated enough to attract/retain people who know how to code, which is different that teaching to code but an educator must know high level concepts to teach effectively. Anyone proficient enough to teach code is either working or consulting in the private sector. I do wish US K-12 teachers were better compensated. EDIT: readability.