4 ms·

It's harder when using humans, though. How do you depict a slow person, two enemies etc? With animals, the turtle and the hare you instantly know have a differ

It's harder when using humans, though. How do you depict a slow person, two enemies etc? With animals, the turtle and the hare you instantly know have a difference in speed. The mouse removing something from the lions paw portraits two natural enemies etc.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago
Not all children know a rabbit is faster than a turtle, nor that x and x are an enemy of a lion. If we can teach this layer, why can't we do the other? A simple thing like one kid being known to be fast, getting trophies, or the slower one having some sort of handicap would do the same. The second is easily strange kids at a new school, kids that look different or eat differently (with the one being helped having been unsure of it), and so on. After all, it isn't like the animals are natural enemies, but one happens to eat the other. In other words, simply have the story tell the lesson outright, with people, rather than expecting them to learn from the animal metaphors.
- infinite8s 9y ago
  True, but you lose the instant recognition of differences (which come to think of it might be a good thing).
- throwaway_345 9y ago
  As a parent with a child on Autism spectrum, it makes me mad to no end to try and shoehorn Animals everywhere. Like - Rabbit and Tiger going to school and doing things. Tiger going to "boys room". How do you explain that tiger is a boy? I am not saying - to not have Animals in the stories. Turtle and the rabbit in their role make sense. Thirsty crow story won't be same without a crow or some other kind of flying Animal. So as Lion and the mouse. But it doesn't stop there. We have Animals doing shopping, pigs buying ham (it comes quite close to that sometimes). In my experience of working with my child, he understands and retells stories that he can relate to. Contexts that I can explain without calling for helpful dose of fantasy. He and I still try and love books where use of Animals is out of place. Such as - Elephant & Piggy stories. But I believe, he will get so much more out of those books if they used Humans. Then again, I may not be their target audience...
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    I used to babysit (as a 25-30+ old adult) for a pre-teen (and later teenager) with autism (it was really more supervision, just in case, as he did fairly well most times). He had much of the same issues - calling a fried chicken leg a "drumstick" was completely off limits as he wouldn't know what I was talking about. I can imagine he had much of the same problem with such stories. This is probably a facet that is often overlooked.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      There are a couple of interesting books about metaphor for people with autism. It's raining cats and dogs was written by someone with autism: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Its-Raining-Cats-Dogs-Expressions/dp/1849052832/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Its-Raining-Cats-Dogs-Expressions/d... And here's another book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Asperger-Dictionary-Everyday-Expressions-ebook/dp/B003GALS70/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Asperger-Dictionary-Everyday-Expres...
  - dubya 9y ago
    My favorite example is one of the Poppleton books, where in one chapter the librarian is a chicken, and in the next, the pig is having chicken noodle soup.
- tchaffee 9y ago
  How do the kids learn rabbits are fast and turtles are slow, along with the cultural significance of the pairing? I also think changing our traditions of story telling based on one study without even understanding the long term outcome is a bit too eager.
watwut 9y ago
I assure you even small children have zero problem distinguish human looking good and bad in kids shows. From the way characters look, through the way they talk and lastly, by seeing bad characer doing something very very bad in first scene with him.
- underwater 9y ago
  I have a huge issue with that trope. Most kids shows use the idea of inherently good and bad characters. We are teaching them that people are wrong because they are bad people. We drill this into people's heads from a young age and then we wonder why adults are incapable of expressing a difference of opinion in a rational way.
  - eat_veggies 9y ago
    For this reason I've been loving Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, the animated continuation of Mr. Rodger's Neighborhood. There are no villains or bad people, just friends making honest mistakes and learning how to deal with them. When you feel so mad you want to roar, take a deep breath and count to four
    - mathgeek 9y ago
      One thing that bothers me about DTN is that Mr. Rogers was a believer in using real people and real-life representations of them (puppets) as a way to curb the contemporary use of cartoons to entertain children. I just can't decide whether or not DTN is something he would have approved of.
  - watwut 9y ago
    I agree with you about that trope. Moreover, we are also teaching them that good are always smarter/more skilled or win another way. Basically, when you are looking at the winner, winner must have been also morally right. And when winner does something bad to win competition or whatever, then it was still good. However, I quite sure that all of these still can be conveyed with humans as much as with animals and anthropomorphous trains/cars etc. The only reason city kid knows that rabbit is fast is because the kid seen it running in cartoon anyway. It is not like kids would had hands on experience with rabbits and turtles.
tpeo 9y ago
You can name that character after his chief trait. It could be "John Slow", "Lazy Daisy", "Tardy Hardy", "Hagar, the Laggard" or whatever else you might think of. Or even literally name them after the trait and make it an allegory. Enmity, on the other hand, can be inferred from the either from the story or from the context, by having one character hurt another another at some point in a way that sets them up for a grudge or by having them compete in a contest. It really isn't necessary to have animals in children stories.
DanBC 9y ago
But animals are used inconsistently in stories. In one book you'll have cats and dogs not getting on. In another book they'll be best friends. In some books the animal are so anthropomorphised the animal characteristics appear irrelevant. For example, in You must bring a hat there is a human protagonist who meets a hat-wearing monkey, a monocle-wearing badger, a tutu-wearing and piano-playing elephant, etc. (It's a nice book, with lovely illustration. https://www.amazon.co.uk/You-Must-Bring-Simon-Philip/dp/1471117324/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/You-Must-Bring-Simon-Philip/dp/1471... )

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

Not all children know a rabbit is faster than a turtle, nor that x and x are an enemy of a lion. If we can teach this layer, why can't we do the other? A simple thing like one kid being known to be fast, getting trophies, or the slower one having some sort of handicap would do the same. The second is easily strange kids at a new school, kids that look different or eat differently (with the one being helped having been unsure of it), and so on. After all, it isn't like the animals are natural enemies, but one happens to eat the other. In other words, simply have the story tell the lesson outright, with people, rather than expecting them to learn from the animal metaphors.

infinite8s 9y ago
True, but you lose the instant recognition of differences (which come to think of it might be a good thing).
throwaway_345 9y ago
As a parent with a child on Autism spectrum, it makes me mad to no end to try and shoehorn Animals everywhere. Like - Rabbit and Tiger going to school and doing things. Tiger going to "boys room". How do you explain that tiger is a boy? I am not saying - to not have Animals in the stories. Turtle and the rabbit in their role make sense. Thirsty crow story won't be same without a crow or some other kind of flying Animal. So as Lion and the mouse. But it doesn't stop there. We have Animals doing shopping, pigs buying ham (it comes quite close to that sometimes). In my experience of working with my child, he understands and retells stories that he can relate to. Contexts that I can explain without calling for helpful dose of fantasy. He and I still try and love books where use of Animals is out of place. Such as - Elephant & Piggy stories. But I believe, he will get so much more out of those books if they used Humans. Then again, I may not be their target audience...
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  I used to babysit (as a 25-30+ old adult) for a pre-teen (and later teenager) with autism (it was really more supervision, just in case, as he did fairly well most times). He had much of the same issues - calling a fried chicken leg a "drumstick" was completely off limits as he wouldn't know what I was talking about. I can imagine he had much of the same problem with such stories. This is probably a facet that is often overlooked.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    There are a couple of interesting books about metaphor for people with autism. It's raining cats and dogs was written by someone with autism: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Its-Raining-Cats-Dogs-Expressions/dp/1849052832/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Its-Raining-Cats-Dogs-Expressions/d... And here's another book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Asperger-Dictionary-Everyday-Expressions-ebook/dp/B003GALS70/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Asperger-Dictionary-Everyday-Expres...
- dubya 9y ago
  My favorite example is one of the Poppleton books, where in one chapter the librarian is a chicken, and in the next, the pig is having chicken noodle soup.
tchaffee 9y ago
How do the kids learn rabbits are fast and turtles are slow, along with the cultural significance of the pairing? I also think changing our traditions of story telling based on one study without even understanding the long term outcome is a bit too eager.

watwut 9y ago

I assure you even small children have zero problem distinguish human looking good and bad in kids shows. From the way characters look, through the way they talk and lastly, by seeing bad characer doing something very very bad in first scene with him.

underwater 9y ago
I have a huge issue with that trope. Most kids shows use the idea of inherently good and bad characters. We are teaching them that people are wrong because they are bad people. We drill this into people's heads from a young age and then we wonder why adults are incapable of expressing a difference of opinion in a rational way.
- eat_veggies 9y ago
  For this reason I've been loving Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, the animated continuation of Mr. Rodger's Neighborhood. There are no villains or bad people, just friends making honest mistakes and learning how to deal with them. When you feel so mad you want to roar, take a deep breath and count to four
  - mathgeek 9y ago
    One thing that bothers me about DTN is that Mr. Rogers was a believer in using real people and real-life representations of them (puppets) as a way to curb the contemporary use of cartoons to entertain children. I just can't decide whether or not DTN is something he would have approved of.
- watwut 9y ago
  I agree with you about that trope. Moreover, we are also teaching them that good are always smarter/more skilled or win another way. Basically, when you are looking at the winner, winner must have been also morally right. And when winner does something bad to win competition or whatever, then it was still good. However, I quite sure that all of these still can be conveyed with humans as much as with animals and anthropomorphous trains/cars etc. The only reason city kid knows that rabbit is fast is because the kid seen it running in cartoon anyway. It is not like kids would had hands on experience with rabbits and turtles.

tpeo 9y ago

You can name that character after his chief trait. It could be "John Slow", "Lazy Daisy", "Tardy Hardy", "Hagar, the Laggard" or whatever else you might think of. Or even literally name them after the trait and make it an allegory. Enmity, on the other hand, can be inferred from the either from the story or from the context, by having one character hurt another another at some point in a way that sets them up for a grudge or by having them compete in a contest. It really isn't necessary to have animals in children stories.

DanBC 9y ago

But animals are used inconsistently in stories. In one book you'll have cats and dogs not getting on. In another book they'll be best friends. In some books the animal are so anthropomorphised the animal characteristics appear irrelevant. For example, in You must bring a hat there is a human protagonist who meets a hat-wearing monkey, a monocle-wearing badger, a tutu-wearing and piano-playing elephant, etc. (It's a nice book, with lovely illustration. https://www.amazon.co.uk/You-Must-Bring-Simon-Philip/dp/1471117324/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/You-Must-Bring-Simon-Philip/dp/1471... )